No cringle for cunningham/downhaul. And a Dutchman reefing question.

[Greenheart]

I bought my boat with two mainsails. One was in better shape than the other, so I rolled it up behind the sofa for eight years.

For 2022 I've hauled the 'better' one out and I'm going to give it some use. Neither is loose footed, but they're not the same.

The one I've used has a cringle 20cm off the boom (green arrow), for shortening the leech and flattening the foot in a breeze...

...it also has a cunningham cringle (red arrow) about 15cm above the boom. At least, I always assumed it's for the cunningham.

But the other mainsail, which is far from new, has neither the upper leech cringle, nor any cunningham cringle...

...so I'm assuming the sail has never benefited from luff-tightening except by the halyard, with the sail's foot secured in the boom.

Why wouldn't the sailmaker have added a cringle for the cunningham? Is it common to use only the halyard for luff-tension?

While I'm asking, is there any reason not to replace my lazyjacks with a Dutchman reefing system (home-made, like the lazyjacks)?

The lazyjacks have been great but not perfect, and they add a lot of line. I'm sewing track sliders onto the luff to make the sail easier to hoist and drop. With Dutchman reefing, I'm hoping I can release the halyard and the sail will flake tidily on the boom with minimum encouragement, assisted by gravity.

The lazyjacks have been 100% better than having the whole lowered mainsail (and unsupported boom) loose and flapping in the cockpit, but the sail doesn't flake on the boom without a lot of help that I'm not free to give (I single-hand), leaving it as a mess caught between the lazyjack lines.

Dutchman reefing looks ingenious and pleasingly simple, but seems to be extremely rare. Is there some downside that explains its unpopularity? I can't even find one good photo of a system to illustrate my plan here.

 

[MADRIGAL]

Here is a link to a description of the Dutchman sail flaking system that may help,with a few pictures:

The Dutchman — UK Sailmakers

I made a lazy jack system that looked much like the one in your photos, but it ended up tangled in the mainsail once too often, so I got rid of it. Having to stow it prior to raising the sail and then hoisting it again before lowering the mainsail rather defeated the purpose of making sail handling more expedient for a single hander.

I can’t think why your mainsail doesn’t have a Cunningham cringle, other than that the Osprey design predates the appearance of the Cunningham tackle in the 1958 America’s Cup, so perhaps the sailmaker was aiming at historical authenticity.

Nice picture of the Osprey

 

[Daydream believer]

One assumes, that with an osprey being a dinghy, you would take the sail off after each trip. This would entail re threading the individual lines through all the cringles then fixing them to the boom prior to hoisting the sail. Perhaps rings would be better than cringles as you could remove them after without damage to the sail when you find it does not work. One line one side of the sail, next line the other side & so on.
By the time you did that it would be time to pack up & go home, so you could offset the cost against the cost of a new wetsuit & life jacket

 

[Stemar]

I had a similar issue with the sail not coming down properly on my Snapdragon. A light downhaul run from the head, down through a couple of the sliders to keep it from getting tangled fixed the issue. let go the halliard, pull in the downhaul and make it off to a small cleat and the main was sorted. Not particularly tidily, but out of harms way. Tidying could wait until it was convenient.

I think you'd need the sliders for it to work; trying to pull the sail down out of the slot from the top feels like a recipe for frustration and blue air. If you go the slider route, I think you'll want something to keep the sliders from escaping the mast slot. An inch or two of SS rod with a couple of threaded holes and thumb screws would do the job.

 

[Daydream believer]

Why wouldn't the sailmaker have added a cringle for the cunningham? Is it common to use only the halyard for luff-tension?

It may be that the cunningham was not in wide use when your sail was made.I certainly did not have them on any of my mainsails ( & i had several) on my Stella in the 70s. 90% of my sailing was racing so I would have been looking for something like that if the rest of the class was using them.
From what I recall from my dinghy sailing racing days back in 1960 onwards, Hood were not a "go to" sail maker for dinghy sails. They were more cruiser orientated, so not considered a developement sailmaker among the dinghy boys. For that reason they possibly had not progressed the art down from their cruiser race sails enough to bother.
On top of that the cunningham puts the tension on in a slightly different way & alters sail shape differently to just hardening up the halyard

 

[Wing Mark]

Before cunninghams were almost universal in dinghies, people used to adjust luff tension by moving the sliding gooseneck.
The Hood sail possibly dates from that era.
These days a lot of dinghies don't exactly have a cunningham, just a tack downhaul.

The flattening reef in the leach of the other sail would enable a fuller sail with the foot pulled out to the black band limit. The sail gets flattened and also the clew raised, enabling the mast to be raked more. Seen of some dinghies where the rake can be adjusted on the race course, especially a few older designs with long booms and hog-stepped masts.

 

[smert]

We prefer our Dutchman system over the stackpack/lazy jacks on our previous boat, but as Daydream Believer says, if you are taking the sails off after each sail, you will spend a huge amount of time rethreading the Dutchman lines up through the sail again.

 

[dunedin]

Firstly I would suggest that a cunningham / tack downhaul is an important safety feature for sailing a powerful dinghy with a large rig singlehanded - essential to get home upwind if the breeze gets up. Without an efficient Cunningham, the maximum depth of the sail will move back as the breeze gets up, and start to cause both excess heeling and drag - just when you don’t need it.
For an Osprey I would want a cascade with at least 8:1 advantage, ideally with the standing part dyneema and the tails led back on both sides to beside the helm. Along with the kicker controls, these help you flatten the sail to go upwind.

The leech crinkle on the other hand looks unusual and probably not needed (possibly only used for a large helm when sailing with the mast raked well back).

Secondly, are you sure that second sail is actually designed for an Osprey? As post #5 says, Hood were well known for making quality & expensive sails for large (by the standard of the day) yachts. I personally had never seen a dinghy sail made by Hood. And the fact they omitted a cunningham (standard with with any fast boat for the last 50 years, at least prior to fully battened laminate sails) suggests either designed for a small yacht (with sliding boom) or simply bad design for a racing dinghy. If so, it is likely that the sail is not designed to match the curvature of a bendy mast either, and may set worse than the current sail.

Finally, it would be easy for a sailmaker to add a cunningham cringle - but it will need a small reinforcing patch. However, I think the Osprey class changed their rig a decade or so ago. I suspect there are a lot of excellent quality sails sitting in lofts which were dumped in favour of the new spec rig. If you contacted the Osprey class association you may pick up a much better sail, designed to match the rig, for peanuts.

PS. I would stick with you lazy jacks - threaded ropes does sound like a real phaff to rig and I rig, and must either be too slack or will impact sail shape.

 

[ianat182]

Regarding the lowering of the mainsail- leave the luff as it is and lubricate the luff groove for about 18" with PTFE or Teflon spray lubricant. You will be amazed at the ease of hoisting and lowering greased lightning comes to mind. Some uswers actually spray the sail luff instead but the small amount needed in the luff groove usually is sufficient. It is not a staining lubricant ,and not a WD40 damp -proofing liquid which should not be used. One aerosol lasts ages as so little needed for outhaul tracks and sliders where I also used to good effect.

ianat182

 

[Greenheart]

Thanks, all. Lots to reflect on, there.

Last things first, I've always been generous with silicone sprays, but the Osprey's boltrope is just a ghastly nuisance. Fine for perfecting sail shape while racing, but I never race and it's a pain when afloat to carefully feed the boltrope into the track...

...even two hands aren't enough - the half-raised boltrope easily snags and is hoisted up the track with half the sail in the track and half out. It's wretched. Amusingly, my Achilles 24 had exactly the same style of bolt-rope mainsail, and it was equally awkward. I sewed on track sliders, with great success, photo below...so I'm persuaded that that part of my plan is solid.

Regarding the possibility of the Hood sail coming from a different class, I offer the photo below which includes the Osprey insignia. Not absolutely conclusive, but it may show that this sail is from the era before the class used a tack downhaul cringle.

I certainly can't be sure the sail is younger than the hull. If both are from 1973, I can believe that as suggested, that sail's fittings precede common installation of a tack-downhaul.

...a lot of dinghies don't exactly have a cunningham, just a tack downhaul.

What is the difference between a tack downhaul and a cunningham?

It occurred to me that perhaps the standard for the class at that time was to rely on the halyard for luff tension and that the luff and leech cringles (photo in my first post) would only be used together to take the bag out of the bottom of the sail as a slab; but that isn't most people's view of the purpose of the leech cringle, which I have always reckoned to be right.

None of that is very important. Both mine are old sails, and I doubt their shape has hampered the use I've been able to make of the boat. That said, the idea of picking up recent ex-racer's sails is tempting - I might find my own ability and the boat's, is altogether improved. And it always feels great getting 'new' kit.

For clarity, I don't take the mainsail off the boom for months at a time, till it comes home in winter. I don't think the sail suffers at all, flaked over the boom under the boom-up cover; so adding Dutchman reefing wouldn't be more time-consuming...

...but the last photo in my first post, reminds me that the lazyjacks keep the lowered sail above the boom (somewhat untidily) whereas the flakes enabled by a Dutchman system would hang below the boom, where headroom is limited anyway.

It wouldn't concern ordinary Osprey sailors who almost exclusively race two-up, but I use yacht-style adaptations to cruise the boat single-handed, with a degree of control that her size and original design didn't allow for.

I've sometimes flaked the sail in the lazyjacks as in the photos below, but that's not the way they fall naturally, and making them so neat isn't easy whilst afloat...

...I'm embarrassed to say after long years happily using the lazyjacks, I only just realised they are meant to be used with a topping lift. My lazyjacks support the considerable weight of my boom, so the the tight lines constrict the sail in a three-inch-wide space, which prohibits all hope of natural flaking or settling of the sail.

On that basis, perhaps I want a topping lift instead of Dutchman reefing. It'll certainly be easier to add.

 

[Daydream believer]

On that basis, perhaps I want a topping lift instead of Dutchman reefing. It'll certainly be easier to add.

The Dutchman system still needs a topping lift, as the lines are suspended vertically from it. The lines come from the topping lift to the boom so the sail sits on top of the boom & only hangs down a bit. Certainly no more than your current system, because if done properly the line zig zags through the sail & it drops to the top of the boom. If the lines are too slack the sail will not drop properly

 

[Greenheart]

Indeed, but that's what I mean...as I have to fit a topping lift, I won't need the Dutchman because the LJ lines won't squeeze the sail...

...but if I'm not content when the sail has space to sit flattish between the LJs, I'll be part-way through making the Dutchman anyway.

 

[Daydream believer]

What is the difference between a tack downhaul and a cunningham?

Using my Phantom as an example. The halyard is hoisted to the top of the mast & left fixed. The sail is loose fitted to the boom, only being attached at the clew. The luff has a velcro strap around the mast at the foot, which allows the foot of the luff to slide up & down & prevents it being pulled away from the mast as the clew outhaul is tensioned.
To adjust halyard tension one has a tackle to pull down on the foot of the sail & the amount is limited by the strap catching on the gooseneck. I would normally just set it to a standard minimum tension for the day at the start then play with it when sailing. It does, make adjusting halyard tension quick & easy. Then in addition the shape of the sail can be adjusted by a cunningham, the eye of which is fitted about 6 inches up the front edge of the sail. This has a tackle system that gives about 4:1 so one can get quick tension if required .
On the Phantom I found that mast rake & kicker tension coupled with clew outhaul were the most important controls . With my lack of use, I tended to leave the cunningham alone with minimal tension once set for conditions.
On my cruiser I find that mast bend is my first "reef" to flatten the sail a little. being a laminate sail the flow does not move much so I do not have to drag it forward to compensate in stronger wind. Then first reef & so on. Once first reef is applied cunningham is redundant so I tend not to use it. But I can, & do, adjust halyard tension quite easily using the winch.

 

[dunedin]

Regarding the possibility of the Hood sail coming from a different class, I offer the photo below which includes the Osprey insignia. Not absolutely conclusive, but it may show that this sail is from the era before the class used a tack downhaul cringle.

I certainly can't be sure the sail is younger than the hull. If both are from 1973, I can believe that as suggested, that sail's fittings precede common installation of a tack-downhaul.

Useful photo of the sail - though needs a bit more wind to see the shape properly.
The shape of the leech does make it look as though it probably is designed for an Osprey.
But it does look quite full in shape - and certainly the luff will need a LOT more tension to be sailable upwind in a breeze (though perhaps a heavy dose of kicker to bend the mast might help in a wind).

I am no expert on Ospreys, but around our area they didn’t have any GRP decked Ospreys in the early 70s - seem to recall mostly wooden and a few composite (GRP hull with wooden deck). Suspect a knowledgable person could identify the generation of Osprey (certainly not a recent one, based on rear tank).
If the sail is 50 years old I would expect you could tell by the cloth and stitching. Either way, unless your gooseneck is on a slider, I would think it needs a cunningham eye added.

 

[Greenheart]

Thank you both, again. New thoughts are dawning and being discarded, then revived, so I'm not done, reading.

EDIT:

I just found a block, taped near the bottom of the luff, the same height above the boom as the cringle on my other sail.

I'd seen it before without ever recognising what it was for. I'm dazzled by my daftness. Photo below (luff is horizontal).

All the same, it has struck me that neither of my old mainsails may be in good enough shape to be worth working on. But it won't do me any harm to practice my stitching, and meanwhile I'll look at what's available to take their place.

Hartley (who make the Mk5 Osprey) are selling a used laminate mainsail, condition '8/10', priced at £399...

...given that I would want to add track-sliders and slab reefs to any replacement, is laminate a poorer choice than dacron?

 

[Daydream believer]

Hartley (who make the Mk5 Osprey) are selling a used laminate mainsail, condition '8/10', priced at £399...

Dan. That is too expensive for a second hand dinghy sail.
With all due respect you do not need to pay that for one to suit your type of sailing. You are not racing.
I would also suggest dacron because you leave it on the boom it may well end up mouldy between the laminates if you get laminate.
I dry my laminate sails & roll them carefully, then store in aired sailbags after every sail. You can at least wash a dacron sail & do stitching jobs yourself OK
In 2019 I bought a pair of laminate mainsails for my Phantom at £ 800 each. These were cut to my spec. A new Osprey sail should not be so much more. That shows that £ 399 for a second hand one is too expensive.
You can find that some sails look OK but are actually hopeless. I know that some makes of phantom sails are a real no no ( North are awful, Hyde no better & I say that as a lover of Hyde sails on my cruiser & Squib). They look very nice when rigged but one can really feel the difference when sailing the boat. So that sail may be with the sail maker because it is a dud

 

[dunedin]

Dacron would be better than laminate for your use. And I would have thought could find a decent Dacron Osprey mainsail through the owners association for less than a quarter of that price

 

[dunedin]

Thank you both, again. New thoughts are dawning and being discarded, then revived, so I'm not done, reading.

EDIT:

I just found a block, taped near the bottom of the luff, the same height above the boom as the cringle on my other sail.

I'd seen it before without ever recognising what it was for. I'm dazzled by my daftness. Photo below (luff is horizontal).

All the same, it has struck me that neither of my old mainsails may be in good enough shape to be worth working on. But it won't do me any harm to practice my stitching, and meanwhile I'll look at what's available to take their place.

Perfect, that block is indeed for the Cunningham. The main tack crinkle will need a repair though, as the eyelet has pulled out (must have suffered some abuse for that to happen as one thing Hood sails generally were was robust).

 

[Daydream believer]

To repair that hole I would not bother with a sail maker. I would get a piece of UV resistent webbing 25 mm wide 200mm long & place it folded so it is each side of the sail by 100mm. Thus leaving a small loop at the corner. You could trap a small ring in the loop but a cord long enough for a tie down or a long dynema shackle would be neatest. Necessary because you have a broken gooseneck so you have to tie to the mast. Stitch the webbing through the sail for the 100mm to itself ( Bisecting the angle) & you are good to go. You will not put massive pull on the outhaul & you can always keep a little tension on the cunningham to prevent the halyard ripping it out if you do not feel totally confident in your work.
A sail stitcher- if you do not have one already- is a useful piece of kit to have in ones armoury of rigging kit.

 

[Greenheart]

Thanks DB, actually my sail-repair bag grows by the year and I think I have the right kit. I've previously used rings and turnovers to reinforce holes for slab reefs. But I take your point about the tack needing to be prevented from sliding aft along the track, a factor I have largely ignored all these years. That won't have helped my sail shape.

I was shown how, by Cindy at Wilkinson Sails, who contributes here. She was a great help - but I'm afraid even she was unable to tell me where to get more of the brass 'turnover' pieces. Eventually I ordered from Sailrite in the U.S., at huge expense.

It's difficult to believe there's only one outlet globally for these neat little items which allow a nice satisfying long-lasting bit of DIY (notwithstanding my rotten sewing generally). If anybody knows of another supplier, please don't keep it quiet!

I mean particularly that design - I know there are other suppliers of brass spur-grommets which may (or may not) be as good.

Regarding the laminate sail, thank you...I knew it was a bit ruddy pricey when I can get a new dacron Osprey main for £700.

I bought a cheap used laminate main and genoa for the Achilles, and they looked good, but the verdict generally was that the separation of some reinforcements from the clear material could not be fixed, and that they were near the end of their usefulness. I like dacron because I'm familiar with it and as you say, my use is far from demanding.

The Osprey Sailing owners group has little on their 'for sale' page at the moment. Just a Mk 5 boat at £17,500. ?