Nicholson 38

[Clarky]

What do people think about these for living on,the cockpit seems quite small ,would this be an issue.
Is osmosis likely to be an issue on these ?
Sailing wise I am assuming it will be great in bad weather with the long keel.

 

[Tranona]

In their day they were very popular with liveaboards - not actually a C&N design but an Alden design. Not that should be held against it! By today's standards very cramped for the length because of the short waterline and narrow beam, and of course getting old and mostly well used. Built in the osmosis era but don't think they are any more or less prone than contemporaries. Some argue that the cockpit shelter is good for shade in the Med, but there is little real lounging space on deck.

By all accounts sail just like they look.

 

[robmcg]

Powerful boats with a versatile rig and bombproof. I looked at one but felt that the accomodation was small compared to overall length. It's a 1960's boat with accomodation to match so doesn't score highly on this front. As a long legged cruiser, 2 up, you would probably be OK but you can reproduce the virtues of this boat with others that have far better accomodation. Still look fantastic though. Heart v head choice I think.

 

[Clarky]

The interior lack of space doesnt bother me that much,its just the cramped space in the cockpit.I think the heart v head comment sums it up well.

 

[SailBobSquarePants]

As a Nich owner...

Well, a Nich 32 at least...I would say the comments are spot on. On paper, the difference between their beams and a modern boat's don't look like much - but in LIVING SPACE it is a lot.

The positive thing about them is that you realize that they weren't built to a price - they were priced to reflect being built to do their job well. The quality of the joinery will be first rate, if previous owners haven't messed with it. They will have real features for true blue water cruising, including handholds in all the right places, angled areas where the deck meets the joinery, and in general be robust.

BUT - they used antiquated layups, some of which were not really that water resistant - fixable with epoxy treatments, and most seem to have had them. The relatively short waterline length is something you will feel - my 32 footer has the same waterline as modern 26 footers, and thus a limited speed potential. They are used, some heavily, some less so.

And that full keel means you REALLY want to look into a bowthruster if you are planning spending much time in marinas, particularly in the Med with the "stern to" docking.

I think it depends upon a few things - and an AWFUL lot comes down to the exact sample of the 38 you are looking at, and her condition, and work by previous owners. Boats of that age have had a lot of "input" from previous owners, and some of it is good, some of it is bad. My Nich was nearly "as delivered" from the yard, just with wear and tear in a lot of places. But others have had a lot of changes to the joinery, hull, etc. And most of these changes are not for the better...

Lastly, price pays a factor. How much will it take to fix her to your standards, what is her price, and .... after all that investment... can you STILL live with her smallish space?

PS - the small cockpit is a PITA...but I now just string a hammock up on the foredeck when I want space to stretch out and have more room...

 

[Deleted member 36384]

As a comparison compare against a Rival 38. Design is of the same era.

Rival's For Sale

Was this boat only supplied as a Centre Cockpit model?

 

[TerryMac]

What do people think about these for living on,the cockpit seems quite small ,would this be an issue.
Is osmosis likely to be an issue on these ?
Sailing wise I am assuming it will be great in bad weather with the long keel.

This year we met a family who have lived aboard a Nic 38 for many years. Have a look at their website: http://sites.google.com/site/alexinaofshoreham/home

Peter is very knowledgable and enthusiastic about the boat and was talking about setting up an owners website. I'm sure he'll be happy to help you out and answer any questions. Cockpit space didn't seem too bad when he invited us round for sundowners and that was with a total of 7!

Good luck

 

[Clarky]

Thanks for the replies,not sure what you mean about not being that waterproof ,do you mean the GRP was a bit porous ?

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

These boats, in good orde,r are fantastic!

I've sailed in one both on day/and w/e trips and accross Biscay 500NM and return.
They were built to Lloyds top spec' and are almost bomb proof.
They sail beautifully in a light blow or a gale. With the ketch rig you can have a lot more rag to play with, missen staysail for instance, and the missen keeps her more balanced than some boats of similar size.
The hull was an American design bought by Camper Nicholson. It was originally thought of as being a motor sailor but she exceeded all expectations and was found to be an incredibly good sailboat in her own right and not slow for her day.
As for seakeeping qualities..... I've been in some really bad seas in one and she really looked after us and she felt as solid as a rock and reliable.
There were two heads on most and the aft cabin, although small with a bunk each side, had its own vanity sink and some a shower .. although not an area for very tall big people. The main heads just for'ard of the mast is reasonably spacious with a shower and good locker space for her age.
The overall accommodation is not vast as in many a modern AWB but you get far better seakeeping qualities.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Thanks for the replies,not sure what you mean about not being that waterproof ,do you mean the GRP was a bit porous ?

The resins available in those days allowed a greater quantity of water at the molecular level to pass through. Modern resins have better qualities that reduce this ability. Epoxides, which most boats are not built from almost prevent water from passing through. It is normal and you will not see beads of water on the inside of the hull as a result. The reason for gel coat is that it provides a better barrier to water molecules.

Water is a key component in the Osmosis aka Hydrolosis chemistry but dont freak out. The good thing with this boat if Scotty Twister is correct (and Rivals) is that their hulls were laid up under Lloyds Supervision. Hence, it is probable that the resin and GRP was correctly mixed, wetted out and applied to the mould, as they understood the process in those days. Another key component in the dreaded boat pox story is poor mix and application of the GRP / resin.

So if you get old style resin and good lay up, you may, and you may not, have evidence of pox. I think that's about all you can conclude today on boats of that age. Lets not ruin a good boat by unreasonable pox fears. A good surveyor will keep you right. Lets not get unreasonable either about what is a good surveyor.

 

[Clarky]

The resins available in those days allowed a greater quantity of water at the molecular level to pass through. Modern resins have better qualities that reduce this ability. Epoxides, which most boats are not built from almost prevent water from passing through. It is normal and you will not see beads of water on the inside of the hull as a result. The reason for gel coat is that it provides a better barrier to water molecules.

Water is a key component in the Osmosis aka Hydrolosis chemistry but dont freak out. The good thing with this boat if Scotty Twister is correct (and Rivals) is that their hulls were laid up under Lloyds Supervision. Hence, it is probable that the resin and GRP was correctly mixed, wetted out and applied to the mould, as they understood the process in those days. Another key component in the dreaded boat pox story is poor mix and application of the GRP / resin.

So if you get old style resin and good lay up, you may, and you may not, have evidence of pox. I think that's about all you can conclude today on boats of that age. Lets not ruin a good boat by unreasonable pox fears. A good surveyor will keep you right. Lets not get unreasonable either about what is a good surveyor.

So if it hasnt got any now,which it appears not to,built early 70`s would it be reasonable to conclude it probably wont develop it later any more than any other boat.
I am very taken with the boat ,but have had problems with my present wooden boat so dont want another load of things to sort out.Modern boats dont do it for me unfortunately.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I Dont Know

So if it hasnt got any now,which it appears not to,built early 70`s would it be reasonable to conclude it probably wont develop it later any more than any other boat.

You just dont know but dont do anything silly like Epoxy Coat the hull. Leave it as is and go sailing. That would be my advice based on my own experience as an amateur. My own boat is 1973 ish, 41 feet and similar layup to the Nic 38. The hull has raised moisture levels and no visible Osmosis.

Ian Nicolson a very respected surveyor and author on many books about boat surveying advised me to get on with it and go sailing. Forums and Google research can scare one mightily on the pox which, in my opinion is not necessary.

I personally feel that older boat hulls will one day suffer sufficient deterioration to warrant corrective work. I expect one day to lift my boat out the water and notice pox. At that point, I'll treat the symptom and launch her again. Maybe in a further 20 years I'll hot vac the hull and give her a new lease of life. I just dont know but I enjoy sailing her.

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

volume per £

Arn't we missing the point in some of these comparisons.

You can get a good one for 30 to 40k depending on inventory for instance.

(one for sale in our yard middle condition, basically original but with replacement engine and having had hull stripped and repaired, not new sails @ £36k ono)

The volume internally needs to be considered in the context. a modern AWB at 38' in good condition may cost slightly more!

I suggest the Nic will still last longer

There's a few up here, the enclosed cockpit is good in our more normal weather conditions and temperatures.

Depends where you're going with it i suppose.

It will get you round the world on a budget!

 

[SailBobSquarePants]

Thanks for the replies,not sure what you mean about not being that waterproof ,do you mean the GRP was a bit porous ?

Not porous per se...just that you may get a few blisters here or there, which you pop, drain, and patch. Or ignore.

When I was looking to buy Xanthe II, my surveyor was an older gentleman who obviously loved old boats. As he stated, "Osmosis has never sunk a boat, relax, enjoy her, and pop them if you see them". Good advice, I popped and patched a total of three blisters last October when hauled out - each was less than a 5p piece.

The GRP on an older Nich was very, very thick - they really were not sure how it would hold up, and as a Halmatic employee told me - "we really just kept throwing on resin until we got bored, because it was so cheap back then". As an example, it took two hours to cut four holes for my cockpit instruments - wore out two rechargeable drill batteries, had to fetch a 240v drill and extensions, and STILL had to be chisled out. Turns out the coachroof was several inches thick...

 

[Clarky]

Arn't we missing the point in some of these comparisons.

You can get a good one for 30 to 40k depending on inventory for instance.

(one for sale in our yard middle condition, basically original but with replacement engine and having had hull stripped and repaired, not new sails @ £36k ono)

The volume internally needs to be considered in the context. a modern AWB at 38' in good condition may cost slightly more!

I suggest the Nic will still last longer

There's a few up here, the enclosed cockpit is good in our more normal weather conditions and temperatures.

Depends where you're going with it i suppose.



It will get you round the world on a budget!

I agree with you ,it seems a good choice for Scotland and they are very classic and seem to be capable of going anywhere.
I have sent you a pm hope thats ok.

 

[Chris_Robb]

The interior lack of space doesnt bother me that much,its just the cramped space in the cockpit.I think the heart v head comment sums it up well.

I think you are right to consider cockpit space, as you effectively live in the cockpit and spend almost no time down below except to cook and sleep.

 

[Clarky]

I think you are right to consider cockpit space, as you effectively live in the cockpit and spend almost no time down below except to cook and sleep.

Probably less true in the Med,the open pilothouse is also an attraction due to the weather here,but if it had that plus a bigger cockpit it would have been spot on.

 

[stav]

I nearly changed my nic 36 for one of these. I agree the cockpit was my hesitation but probabaly would not stop me buying one if harbours had let me put one on my mooring (limited to 36'). Also when thinking about space whilst the volume is not up with modern boats you will find the water tank in the bilge and the batteries and diesel with the engine leaving under the berths free for storage of other items. If I was buying one have a good look at the steering as it is quite complicated and I have taken out the chain plates on my boat to check them along with other jobs. As for age any boat over 10yrs old can be full of quite knackered kit: sails, engine, rigging, batteries, electronics. Old kit can be repleced. Do you want a boat you are happy to put out in in 30knts of breeze short handed or do you want to sit in a marina?

Also having had a long keeled hillyard and my Nic would not bother with a bow thruster, especially if living aboard the space would be too useful and with a biggish engine with practise you can wiggle in to tight spots, learn to use a spring and stop to walk and take a look at where you are going.

Good luck with it.

 

[fudge]

It's true, it's a great website. Try looking at www.nicholson38.org too.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Cockpit....
On my 4 day and night trip to N. Spain and back the cockpit was very cozy and warm. We only had to 'tog-up' if we needed to get outside to attend to sails/rigging.
On this 38' the side and back screens, all see through, unzip and roll up so on a warm day you can have 3/4 of the cockpit well ventilated and see out as normal. If you have a big sea coming in on your beam, you simply zip up on the windward side to stop the green stuff from coming in.
The solid screen and roof to the cockpit may stop some from feeling they are at one with nature a little, but if the roof has a large see-through perspex window, you can still see most of the rig etc..
Although the cockpit is not over big, it is probably safer that way in a big sea in bad conditions. It is a boat that is easy to get coded despite the slightly offset companionway.
It can be comfortable but we found that 4 of us adults on a long journey, was as many as we would recommend. Those spending long in the stern cabin would get a bit claustrophobic after long especially in hot climes i reckon. The stern cabin could make a decent workshop area if livaboard, even keeping the 2nd heads in place.