Nicholson 38 Ketch - thoughts?

[Jason14]

Hi, i know this can be a how long is a piece of string question but i would like to get the thoughts of the collective on the matter please.

I'm looking to upgrade my boat to something larger and more long term, i am ok with DIY and have upgraded my boat considerably but have just sold it and in the market looking for another. my old boat was an old bavaria 32 holiday i have been sailing around the coast of UK/France CI etc for about 5-6 years, but now its time for something longer, more sea kindly perhaps and a little less exposed to weather

It has to be aspiration wise a full time liveaboard for 2 people, and ocean capable although it will spend most its life cruising Europe i will eventually cross the pond with it and even more so the pacific one day.

Dont get me wrong i loved my old boat she performed well and was capable, just not particularly quick with a short LWL and having to reef earlier than perhaps i liked to keep the weather helm off.

Things i like about the Nicholson 38...

- It's a ketch, and i have a strange affliction for ketches.
- The center cockpit is tucked away meaning i can hide from the wind on a long passage, something which used to drive me mad in the bav 32 if on a long cold passage, (i would end up huddling as close to the spray hood as possible!)
- The center cockpit again for its hard top potential and more solar panels!
- Its a heavy boat so will sail well i presume?
- its so old that i can rip out the interior and start again without effecting re-sale.

Things i dont like

- they're old...

i dont mind their age per say, as i dont mind having a re-rig or new engine etc, or are they just a money pit and im better of spending my money on something newer out the box ready almost?

i mean you know a 50 year old mast / engine / seacocks / plumbing / a rewire etc etc will soon get me to a budget i could spend on something newer/ more reliable?

also if anyone knows the nicholson 38 well, in the aft cabin i'd want it as a double, what actually hides behind the sink in there, could i rip it out and stick a double in sideways?
i did read you can extend the starboard bunk but its a "small double"

budget wise i was thinking £40k probably could stretch to 50k for a finished boat with me doing the majority of the work.

 

[srm]

Many years ago I helped an elderly couple take one from Lerwick, Shetland, south to Inverness for the Caledonian canal, in October. The skipper and his wife were heading for Ireland for the winter as they lived on board most of the year. We had a rough passage from Lerwick past Fair Isle to an anchorage in Orkney. Quite a comfortable boat and the cockpit shelter was much appreciated, the skipper rolled up all the side screens at sea but even so it was more like a wheelhouse. Because of the wind the skipper chose to sail under jib and mizzen, so was probably slower than it could have been. Although classed as a motor/sailor the hull is a pre-IOR sailing hull and the skipper said he used it as a sailing boat.
Must admit to hankering after one in the past.
The aft cabin seemed very cramped but a complete rip out and re-model may improve it. Also, while the saloon was good in harbour and the forecabin typical of a boat of that vintage there were no secure sea berths, except possibly the two bunks in the aft cabin.
Its should be a good load carrier for cruising, but with its narrow beam and fine ends will, by modern standards, be small and cramped internally.
As to mast and hull fittings etc, at that age so much depends on what sort of life a boat has had and what upgrades have been done over the years, you may be lucky and find a boat that has been well maintained.
From my brief time sailing one I would suggest it is a possibility, if you find one in good condition. The market for older cruisers with that type of hull is probably limited so price should be negotiable. ( My boat has a similar hull and had been on the market for two years when I got her, ten years ago).

 

[Bajansailor]

There are 3 currently for sale on Yachtworld, ranging in asking price from GBP 19,950 - 35,000.

This one is the cheapest, and has a 2006 Volvo engine -
1970 Nicholson 38 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk

This one has an asking price of GBP 29,950, and till has her original Perkins 4-107 from 1971 -
1971 Nicholson 38 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk

And this one is the most expensive, seems to be well equipped, but still has her (original probably) Perkins 4-108 -
1972 Nicholson 38 Ketch Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -

 

[Jason14]

Many years ago I helped an elderly couple take one from Lerwick, Shetland, south to Inverness for the Caledonian canal, in October. The skipper and his wife were heading for Ireland for the winter as they lived on board most of the year. We had a rough passage from Lerwick past Fair Isle to an anchorage in Orkney. Quite a comfortable boat and the cockpit shelter was much appreciated, the skipper rolled up all the side screens at sea but even so it was more like a wheelhouse. Because of the wind the skipper chose to sail under jib and mizzen, so was probably slower than it could have been. Although classed as a motor/sailor the hull is a pre-IOR sailing hull and the skipper said he used it as a sailing boat.
Must admit to hankering after one in the past.
The aft cabin seemed very cramped but a complete rip out and re-model may improve it. Also, while the saloon was good in harbour and the forecabin typical of a boat of that vintage there were no secure sea berths, except possibly the two bunks in the aft cabin.
Its should be a good load carrier for cruising, but with its narrow beam and fine ends will, by modern standards, be small and cramped internally.
As to mast and hull fittings etc, at that age so much depends on what sort of life a boat has had and what upgrades have been done over the years, you may be lucky and find a boat that has been well maintained.
From my brief time sailing one I would suggest it is a possibility, if you find one in good condition. The market for older cruisers with that type of hull is probably limited so price should be negotiable. ( My boat has a similar hull and had been on the market for two years when I got her, ten years ago).

whats negotiable though for old boats? i know when i bought my last one the room for negotiation wasnt much as it was a solid boat, equally when i sold it the negotiated price was not far from asking price. most of these as advertised clearly need work doing to them and not only cosmetic stuff.

What was it like sailing? i imagine there is a lot of deck work, wheras i'd like to re-rig it to get alot of the essentials back to the cockpit, at 38ft i think it would be adequate for our needs and probably still bigger than our 32 holiday

 

[jwilson]

I too used to lust after a Nicholson 38. No longer, really though. I still like the protected cockpit and the look of the boat, but would no longer want a ketch rig. I would not be put off by age if the boat had been immaculately maintained and had recent gear, especially engine. Yacht engines can last a long time, but an original engine in a Nic 38 is sadly surely heading for its "best before" date. It is a bit towards the motor-sailer end of the spectrum, though will certainly sail as well as any other not that deep draught long-keeler.

You might not find that much more space in a Nic 38 than your Bav 32...... And I very strongly suspect that it will not be easy to put a double in the aft cabin - the reason being the rudder post/quadrant etc towards the centre of the aft cabin.

 

[V1701]

A friend of mine has a Nic 39 for sale asking £40k, she's had quite a lot of money spent on her and is a big, solid boat. Interior-wise there's a walkthrough to the aft cabin which also houses most of the galley, so she is altogether roomier than the 38. Saying that if you get a decent 38 for £20k that's a lot of boat for the money. At the upper end of your budget you can be looking at Moodys with centre cockpit and walkthrough aft cabins which are more modern although not ketches. Happy shopping...

 

[Baggywrinkle]

One of my reservations would be that they are not "hot climate" boats. Stern-to mooring is not easy short-handed as the helm position is in the middle of the boat - and most of the best bits of europe (Croatia, Greece, Turkey) are stern-to mooring. At anchor it makes little difference apart form the ability to get in and out of the dinghy loaded with provisions - and a bathing platform with ladder and shower is a real joy in the height of summer. Ventilation, shade and a large open cockpit are very beneficial in the med or any hot climate.

I had a hankering for a more traditional boat when I bought my AWB in Croatia - but the smell of mildew, the dark and damp inaccessible corners of the boat, the concern as to what will wear out/break next eventually put me off. I viewed a few and was mostly quite disappointed as the mental list of jobs increased exponentially as I started poking around. A well sorted example will cost a lot of money, a fixer-upper less so, but that is then what you will spend the majority of your time doing - contorted in the bowels of the boat, fixing things - unless you plan a couple of years preparing her from the ground up like this chap:

Sail Life

Also ask yourself how much of your time will be spent actually under way in conditions where an old narrow long-keeler "might" be a bit more comfortable than a more modern design? Space is a luxury that is more prevalent on more modern designs. The cockpit of the Nicholson is really quite small, and in hot climates, you live on deck.

However, that said, it's your choice and your budget - the boat can certainly be brought up to scratch and used for your intended purpose.

 

[Javelin]

Consider a bow thruster as they are difficult to handle at slow speed especially if there's any wind
Reversing can lead to heart stopping moments, you need speed to get the rudder to bite and then you find you're going to fast to stop.
Learning to use propwash effectively and maybe trim the keel fwd of the prop to stop some of the keel shielding.
Beware of positioning of supports on a cradle, make sure they land on a bulkhead. If off to one side its been known to them falling over sideways and forwards.
Through deck chainplates are prone to rot the bulkhead out.
Make sure you have a good marker on the side for the aft sling when lifting as its easy to get lifted on your rudder.
A rope from the front sling (as close to the keel as possible) to center cleats or winches is also useful to stop the front sling sliding forwards.

 

[pvb]

i dont mind their age per say, as i dont mind having a re-rig or new engine etc, or are they just a money pit and im better of spending my money on something newer out the box ready almost?

i mean you know a 50 year old mast / engine / seacocks / plumbing / a rewire etc etc will soon get me to a budget i could spend on something newer/ more reliable?

Welcome to the forums!

If you buy a 50 year old boat, you'll spend endless time and money fixing things. Some people like this; others would rather have a life.

There's a reason ketches have fallen out of favour - sail handling systems are much better than they used to be. I've owned 2 ketches, but I'd never buy another.

As others have said, the accommodation will be cramped, the cockpit will be cramped, mooring in many places will be tricky. And you'll be constantly trying to fix things.

Why not do a search on Yachtworld, or similar, to see what your budget would buy you in a more recent boat? You may be pleasantly surprised.

 

[dunedin]

You might not find that much more space in a Nic 38 than your Bav 32...... .

That would be my thought also. And I suspect the waterline lengths are similar, and for light wind Med sailing the Bav 32 would probably be faster and more fun to sail.
Probably wouldn’t take the Bav 32 to the Pacific, personally, but sure others have done so.

Old ketch seems excessively complicated?

 

[srm]

What was it like sailing? i imagine there is a lot of deck work,

Not realy, hank on jib so a bit of sail changing and mainsail reefing at the mast - quite normal at that time.
I would put a roller reefing jib but keep slab reefing at the mast. That way you can see what is going on and have less friction, hoist the main hand over hand and use a winch for final tension. Main is fairly small so nothing excessive.

Negotion - depends how long the boat has been on the market. Start very low and be willing to come up to test seller's minimum. Broker should tell client to expect 10% below asking anyway. My current boat was settled at significantly less, but the market was flat then and she had been on the market for two years.

 

[KompetentKrew]

I had a number of Nic 38's bookmarked in the year or two before I bought my boat and was quite lusting after one for a while, although I have only inspected a very tatty example. I think a few have sold for around the £20,000 mark in recent years - at least they were advertised at that price, even quite good looking ones.

The successor, the Nic 39 is much more spacious - I viewed two and made an offer on one and, with benefit of hindsight, should have offered more and bought her. The Nic 39 was released about 10 years after the 38 and is a bit more modern. The cockpit is more open, and it has a wonderful longitudinal galley. Also a cutaway keel. Nic build quality is marvellous.

 

[Jason14]

Welcome to the forums!

If you buy a 50 year old boat, you'll spend endless time and money fixing things. Some people like this; others would rather have a life.

There's a reason ketches have fallen out of favour - sail handling systems are much better than they used to be. I've owned 2 ketches, but I'd never buy another.

As others have said, the accommodation will be cramped, the cockpit will be cramped, mooring in many places will be tricky. And you'll be constantly trying to fix things.

Why not do a search on Yachtworld, or similar, to see what your budget would buy you in a more recent boat? You may be pleasantly surprised.

is that just because of more sails to look after? i have to admit i've never had the chance to sail a ketch so i dont know any better currently! but typically on passage i set the sails up and thats it especially long distance, and if i had to tack in a narrow transit id just lower the mitzen and sail like a sloop.

i'd rig it for ease of handling etc.

the constantly trying to fix things is what im concerned about but thats why i think a Nic 39 at £20k with a full refit up to my budget at £40-50 would get me a decent boat at the end wouldnt it? or is it too much wishful thinking?

I've had a look at the newer boats, they're nice yes, a newer and bigger Bav looks appealing but im not left with anything for extra equipment and they do tend to come with bare minimum equip and usually a third cabin i wouldnt have use for, and i'd still be sat at the back getting cold huddling behind the spray hood! (not much of an issue when i get to the med i suppose but still everywhere wont be warm)

The Nic 39 looks nice, the going through the heads to get to the aft cabin is a bit odd and its more towards the top of my budget so wouldnt leave me with much change to get it re-fitted, but it is a ketch, i like its look, its a heavy boat so it ticks alot of boxes for me but a project one i might not have the funds to finish off
unless i could get one for £30k it might make sense...

i really do want to get sailing into retirement within 4 years, so the next boat has got to be the one to keep for life, but still has to be on a budget! but it does mean i have time to refit it myself.

 

[Jason14]

sorry i can't edit but i meant the nic 38 in this sentence

" the constantly trying to fix things is what im concerned about but thats why i think a Nic 39 38 at £20k with a full refit up to my budget at £40-50 would get me a decent boat at the end wouldnt it? or is it too much wishful thinking? "

 

[pvb]

the constantly trying to fix things is what im concerned about but thats why i think a Nic 39 at £20k with a full refit up to my budget at £40-50 would get me a decent boat at the end wouldnt it? or is it too much wishful thinking?

Most people who've embarked on "project boats" will tell you that they've spent at least twice what they originally thought was a reasonable budget. Plus, it's all very time-consuming.

 

[Jason14]

Most people who've embarked on "project boats" will tell you that they've spent at least twice what they originally thought was a reasonable budget. Plus, it's all very time-consuming.

Thanks i do appreciate the advice, perhaps "project" is a loose term but i dont mind getting stuck in, its a good way to learn all there is about a boat, but of course the better the starting condition the less work for me.

i think i need to see a few to make that decision perhaps they will feel a little cramped in person, its just been difficult of late with all the lockdown restrictions to get the process moving forward!

 

[srm]

Whatever you eventually buy I would suggest that you delay making any changes until you have lived/cruised on it for a full season. You will then be in a much better position to decide what suits you and what you want to change.
My rule of thumb is three years to get a boat set up the way I want it, sailing as much as possible each season then making any alterations in the off season. Each time I have started with a boat that was in good condition and capable of sailing from the south coast of England to Shetland or Orkney, as that was my delivery trip home.

 

[Javelin]

And accept now that she'll never be finished.

 

[geem]

I wouldnt shy away from an old boat if she is the right boat for you. The problem with asking opinions on this forum is everybody has an idea of what they want that might be nothing like what you want. You only need to look at the plethora of different sailing boats that were somebodies dream boat to realise we all have different dreams.
Sat here in the Azores at anchor seeing all the boats arrive from the Caribbean, there is no distinction between old and new boats and equipment failure. Lots of boats have gone in to the marina to do repairs. New boats with rig failure, engine failure, gearbox failure, etc, etc new and old boats.
Good luck with your search

 

[Laminar Flow]

That would be my thought also. And I suspect the waterline lengths are similar, and for light wind Med sailing the Bav 32 would probably be faster and more fun to sail.
Probably wouldn’t take the Bav 32 to the Pacific, personally, but sure others have done so.

Old ketch seems excessively complicated?

I have owned two ketches and our present boat is a ketch. To date we have done some 10.000 miles cruising and living aboard the current one.

I have sailed offshore as an advising skipper on a ketch when we experienced 50kts+ storm force winds and I am quite aware of the rigs strong points and also it's short comings in all types of sailing. If you are looking to putt about the bay on a Sunday afternoon, perhaps it is not for you; if you are looking for a serious cruising rig then that might be a different story. It is not as close-winded as a single masted rig; about 20% less as the mizzen really is just along for the ride to weather. On all other courses she may well be superior and more powerful with a lower CE and the ability to balance the boat more finely on a reach, close or otherwise. For downwind sailing treat yourself to a nice cruising chute.

The argument that light displacement on it's own is supposedly superior in light going is not correct. Rather, it is a question of a boat's SA/Displ ratio. Also, older, narrower boats can often have a competitively low wetted area compared to beamy modern designs, regardless whether they have a long/longer keel.

The Nic has a pretty good SA/Displ ratio of 16.8. In our current tub of 8.5t, SA/Displ. ratio of 17.8, long keel, we have out-sailed a Bav 32 in light going as well as a Pogo 30 - that is not a miracle, it's physics. A heavy boat with the same SA/Displ ratio as a light one will be faster in light winds. Additionally, the Nic can set a mizzen stay sail which would give her the edge from a close reach down. Of course the heavier boat will be limited at the top end of potential speed - however, in cruising trim and load, that aspect is largely academic.

On seakindliness: there is absolutely no doubt that a heavier boat with a higher water plane loading will be not be subject to the same level of accelerations in a seaway as a light, beamy hull.

In context of this forum, I do find it interesting that the same people, who on here praise the benefits of contemporary design, also point out that their boats are not directionally stable and that, on occasion, their fine bows show a tendency to undercut in boisterous conditions.
I should have thought that neither of these qualities are desirable in a long distance or short-handed cruising boat, no matter what phenomenal speeds these boats, loaded for extended voyaging, coastal or otherwise, are supposedly capable of.

I wish the OP the best of luck finding the boat that suits him best.