Newby looking @ SoF

petem said:
Porto, a liner is a good thing not a bad thing.
Fairline's still have bulkheads and stringers glassed in by men with rollers. The liner sits on top and is then glassed in for EXTRA rigidity. Some manufacturers don't do this, they use ply for the floors of the interior. Fairline certainly don't follow this route to save money or cut corners! As I've said before, if you want a tour of the factory to see how they make boats properly, just let me know!
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P, I'm afraid I must disagree.
Mind, not in order to dismiss FL and their products, but because most of the above is imho just plain wrong - let me explain why:

"A liners is good, not bad": it's actually neither. Liners are a technical choice, with its pros and cons. But there's no such thing as a technicality which is per se better or worse, it's how it's used and for which purpose that matters.

"liners [give] extra rigidity": possibly, but only AOTBE. If at FL they know (and they sure do) that they can achieve a higher hull structural strength through the use of liners, they should reduce the construction strength elsewhere.
It would be poor engineering NOT to do that, and just add some "extra" rigidity on top of what is already enough, because with a planing boat what you want is the lighter possible construction, not the heavier.

"FL don't follow this route to save money": you're saying that as if saving production costs would be a bad thing - maybe they should pay more attention to that... :p
Anyway, as a matter of fact, whether liners can reduce production costs or not is simply a matter of numbers. In principle, if you build an inner mould just for a few boats, you are very unlikely to save money overall - but the opposite is true for high production numbers. Again, no right or wrong here.

"see how they make boats properly": you seem to imply that other builders who didn't choose liners construction are not making proper boats. And if that's your opinion, as such it's obviously respectable.
But it's a bit of a stretch to say the least, when you think that the largest and most expensive yachts are built without any liners... :rolleyes:

Having said all that, I couldn't agree more with Deleted User: all this stuff is practically irrelevant to most boaters, and rightly so, in more ways than one - for all the good reasons he mentioned.
But it's hard to resist to a good old armchair boatbuilding debate, which is always one of the hottest topics here in the asylum...
...and if nothing else, It's much better than actually going in any boatyard and breath resin smell all the time! :)
 
Deleted User said:
I'm playing devils advocate here because I sort of agree with you but the reason nobody really cares how the basic structure of a boat is constructed is because nobody has heard of anyone drowning at sea because their mobo hull has snapped in half.
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You might find a a heightened interest from folks who are peddling a boat for a long charter to transit the Atlantic , more to do with anti prison avoidance .especially if it has a keel !

Buy yeh , you don,t here of much structural stuff in MoBo,s or ends without morbity .

But @ boat show s one can walk on saloon floors and feel them move ,flex -jump on the for deck and feel bounce. Tap the sides with your finger nails and it feels like a Christmass borble or a titanium mountain bike --thin ! .
There has been some threads on here regarding boats falling apart it's not widely reported or liked - folks naturally and understandably get all defensive .
Mods took one off a while back a guy called" Duon ". (sp?) and his new Bav .Factory agree to take it back in the end ,buy he wanted a refund instead . All got a bit heated by all sides
"how dare you challange our build integrity on a public forum " --he posted pics remember and the forum roasted him .

Wrong time wrong place ,no appite --agree
Who cares if you buy new anyway ?

How are your hull windows btw -presume replaced with the latest Mk what ever wonder adhesive ?
Agian you are not the only one Arie D Boom are doing a brisk trade in replacing debonded and cracked hull windows in 10+ y old boats -- all marques bth
 
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Portofino said:
But @ boat show s one can walk on saloon floors and feel them move ,flex -jump on the for deck and feel bounce. Tap the sides with your finger nails and it feels like a Christmass borble or a titanium mountain bike --thin ! .
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As I say I was playing devils advocate. I too like to feel a solidly constructed boat under my feet which is why I've stuck with the fat heavy lumps that Ferretti make:)
 
Portofino said:
How are your hull windows btw -presume replaced with the latest Mk what ever wonder adhesive ?
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I will replace them next winter. Ferretti looked at them and said I was OK to carry on using the boat this season. At the moment I am viewing the cracks as artistic features;) Actually the cracks havent increased in size this year hardly at all. Maybe thats because I'm not using my boat:(
 
Just to put some respective on this ---so far
Pete was the 1st to jump in with Fairline .
I never mentioned it before on this thread .The Op asked which boats have liners ,followed by what's the big deal ? Or words to such effect .
It would be a bit ecomonical with the truth not to delv deeper --I posted a link with caveats .
I Never put forward Sunseeker or Itama ( guys wife requested a HT ) .
Ok I did say Sunseekers are not liner boats -or words to that effect .

It's a fact they still build them in the trad slow ,labour intensive heavey method ,like Della Pietra .MapishM ,s boat .
For the record modern ( post 2004 ) "Ferretti " Itama,s are vac bagged lighter hulls using modern methods .
A sort of streaming through out the Ferretti brands , now run by faceless bean counters .
Pre 2004 are built the trad method like Sunseekers .Owner occupiers like Robert Braithwaite and his bro are rare .I use owner tongue in check allthough he only got single didget % shares ,the old man is still on site .
I,am sure if Carlo Riva or Mario Amarti were still alive and in the yards they would still build the trad method .

Itama is quit interesting to make this point cos style wise thay have not changed .
Where as a Fl or SS from the 80, 90 , looks different from the stuff they turn out now .
The Itama 45 is more or less the same as my 42/48 ,but 3-4 tonnes lighter with 450 /480 Hp
7-8 Litre diesels instead of 13 L lumps 700/730 hp

Lined up side by side at a show ,open the engine room hatch and ask the sales man why ?
New 45 is also on V drive G box --to shove the engine back == more fwd interior space --as Deleted User infers a bigger fridge /galley for SWMBO .
The galleys and heads compartments looked like made off site and dropped in too --so they are all at it ?
Just an observation ,not being critical .
 
MapisM said:
LOL, his boat also enjoys liners construction, IIRC.
You might wish to ask if she's still in one piece, while you are at that... :D :D :D
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LOL -- no I won,t --don,t want him stalking me in Antibes bars .
It was bad enough taking a "minder " to Naples to complete transaction when I bought the Itama .:encouragement:

As I have said ^^^ -things are a changing even @ Ferretti --- it won,t put me off going newer a can x fingers you know
 
Deleted User said:
I have spent 2 periods of several months each berthed in Port Napoleon so I know how windy it can get there! On that subject I didnt have any difficulty getting a berth on either occasion in Port Napoleon so maybe the OP could consider there although the mosquitos are the size of small birds
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I must be lucky ... we don't get mosquitos here ... or traffic jams come to think of it ... I lived just outside Villeneuve-Loubet for a couple of years ... never again!

Edit: Forgot to mention ... we live 195 miles West of Port Napoleon!
 
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Chris H said:
Thanks guys, I wasn't too bothered about a permanent birth as we would like to move around once we get used to the boat, sunseeker have a few births that they have said we can use until we get our own sorted.
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Returning to berths , in the SoF - Cote d Azur region .
For various reason folks want to be there more so than anywhere else ,bit like Belgravia or Mayfair property .
You might want to get somthing a bit more concrete than a small part of brokers sales pitch lost in a sea of emotions of excitement in the initial buying process .
SS do indeed have berths -well @ least 4/6 in La Napoule along with Princess ,same number .
In August dealer stock and show stock starts arriving in prep for Cannes .
Not all of the stuff is exhibited ,some hold stuff back for private viewings .All this plus the the rest of the Med boat building world decend on the CdA --berth space is pressurised .Very Pressed .
Local Marinas to Cannes place temp bouys to accept the boats booted out of Cannes for the show .Same @ Monaco for there show .
I have lost count how many times I have seen people crying in the marina office ( collecting meteo ) pleading not to be evicted .
It's like they have been given some time say 2weeks or a month ( owners boat away or in the yard ) and like Deleted User says think they are IN and will be "sorted "
Nope !
I have booted 2x pax out from both my moorings --just 2weeks notice --Allthough I get the marina office to the dirty !

How ever W there's places and E in Italy -San Remo and Imperia as a back stop .
Indeed Imperia was 1/2 full in June when I last was there and SanRemo a few empty berths .
It's just the A8 E of nice is not the best of paces think M25 and 3 hrs on top for that assuming its not gridlocked makes a quik W/E trip or even a long W/E -- will take the fun out of it .

The reason why 20-40'miles E of Monaco the marinas have spaces is that the coast is as dull as dishwater .
There will be a reason why SW France is not full as well ,I never been so I,ll leave it up others more knowledgable to comment.
A flat in the E end of London is cheaper and take ages to sell than one in Park lane .
 
Keep it coming guys, some good information, if it was a car I'd know exactly where and what to look for but I'm going in blind !........what about Princess ?
 
Chris,

You need to get down to Nice, hire a car, line up a list of boats you think you like the look of and set off to visit them and the various marinas. Book a few top hotels to turn it in to a nice break and go and soak up the area and what it has. Take your wife! She will be key in whatever boat you buy. Old school brokers will ignore her and talk to you. My our case a big mistake as my wife gets very annoyed at such tactics and has walked off boats.

Have lunches/dinners in some of the very good port/beach restaurants to again help get an idea of the lived experience.

The Cannes boat show is in September and might be a good trip to make if only to make contact with all the main brokers. You might get a lead on a trade in boat that they will want to shift on.

When you start to narrow things down don't discount ease of commute to you boat. After a flight do you want another hour or two of hassle or something closer to 30 mins from airport to boat?
 
MapisM, indeed, nothing wrong with a bit of armchair boat building! But, Porto seems to have a fixation that Fairline build a grid and bond it to the hull. That simply isn't true, they lay up the stringers by hand as they always have done. Furthermore​, the main bulkheads are also laid up and glassed into the hull the old fashioned way.

If Fairline were using a ore made grid that is glued to the hull that would be bad. Likewise, using a liner instead of laying up the stringers by hand would also be bad. As I said earlier the liner is more like 'belt and braces', not braces instead of belt as Porto seems to think :).

Still, each to their own, and I certainly wouldn't knock SS as they seem to have an established construction method that works for them.
 
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mcanderson said:
Chris,

You need to get down to Nice, hire a car, line up a list of boats you think you like the look of and set off to visit them and the various marinas. Book a few top hotels to turn it in to a nice break and go and soak up the area and what it has. Take your wife! She will be key in whatever boat you buy. Old school brokers will ignore her and talk to you. My our case a big mistake as my wife gets very annoyed at such tactics and has walked off boats.

Have lunches/dinners in some of the very good port/beach restaurants to again help get an idea of the lived experience.

The Cannes boat show is in September and might be a good trip to make if only to make contact with all the main brokers. You might get a lead on a trade in boat that they will want to shift on.

When you start to narrow things down don't discount ease of commute to you boat. After a flight do you want another hour or two of hassle or something closer to 30 mins from airport to boat?
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Good advice, although we are not strangers to the south, we've had a villa, not far from St Tropez for 10 years.

We decided we wanted to sell the villa and travel around more, hence the boat, we are back down mid August, if anybody fancies a beer and talking boats for a few hours .....let me know !
 
petem said:
MapisM, indeed, nothing wrong with a bit of armchair boat building! But, Porto seems to have a fixation that Fairline build a grid and bond it to the hull. That simply isn't true, they lay up the stringers by hand as they always have done. Furthermore​, the main bulkheads are also laid up and glassed into the hull the old fashioned way.

If Fairline were using a ore made grid that is glued to the hull that would be bad. Likewise, using a liner instead of laying up the stringers by hand would also be bad. As I said earlier the liner is more like 'belt and braces', not braces instead of belt as Porto seems to think :).

Still, each to their own, and I certainly wouldn't knock SS as they seem to have an established construction method that works for them.
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Not said anything "bad "about FL --see post #
We need to make a clear distinction between using foam as a substitute for wood to replace most of the stringers ,rib,s etc
Ok they still use a bit of marine ply @ important bulk heads ,but a MapishM says its done to save cost in terms of UK labour time .These foam pieces make a grid glassed in .So before the inner skin is attached it will look like a massive ice tray -loads of grid kinda sq,s
The inner skin or "liner "is then attached . Hull is ready for fit out -lighter and arguably stronger -while the attachment holds out .On its own the hull is weak ,it's complete when the liner sandwiches the grid .
Hence "liner " hull liner onto a fabricated grid of glass and foam .

Jez,s liner s and indeed all Ferretti + more are ready 1/2 made units like bathrooms gallery,s which are probably sub contracted off site and dropped in and attached --but not on a foam glassed grid ,on a more trad hull -basically thicker glass mat and wooden or carbon fibre cut ribs , stringers and bulkheads .
Which as said "they are all at it " nowadays .

Liners of all types potentially can come loose and flex about Leading to squeaks ,rattles ,flexing cracks, windows loosing seal s , doors not closing etc etc .
That what in theory you pay a surveyor to find ?

Back to the short list
Have a look @ Pershing 43 /50 ----- 10 y old ish --- standard shafts ideally for ease of maintenance .
They can at this size like the big brothers come with Arnesons surface drives .
Depends on your attitude to bills -like Volvo Penta outdrives DPH on 40-45 ft Princess V45 and Absolutes --they have steering rams submerged --figure on seals replaced every 2/3 years .DIYer able --not really .

Baia another one nice hard top Med boat ,but all 50 ftr stuff is Arnesons ---if you can live with the extra service bills ?
Sarnico --- look @ 45 ,50 ' 50 etc
Maxim ( sp ?) do a nice 55 and smaller 45 .

San Remo is great place to see boats ,and visit -add a little Italian flair in the buying decision ,just to confirm why the CdA is popular .
 
Whitelighter said:
Ferretti - my boat has moulded liners for most of the interior.
Article from the time notes this new technique.

Copy (of sorts) here https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...D_0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=ferretti 150&f=false

Interior pic is my boat
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Interesting link indeed, J. I'm not surprised to see that it's an US magazine which highlighted reduced maintenance in areas like the heads as one advantage of liners.
If I could have cherry picked each interior component, heads are the one and only thing for which I would have preferred Ferrettis to my DP, which has lacquered wood panels instead.
Actually, many folks think that moulded GRP heads give a caravan feeling, sort of - which has a lot to see with the reason why you don't find them in higher range boats, I reckon.
But their practicality is second to none, and it's impossible not to appreciate that, for living aboard.

PS: funny that in an article about the 150 they published an exterior pic of a 165, though.
I suppose that back in those days Ferretti was well aware that the 165 was the sleeker and most elegant boat around, and decided to use its image wherever they could... :rolleyes:
 
Portofino said:
Sarnico --- look @ 45 ,50 ' 50 etc
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+1.

Another couple of great options from a yard for which by now I can confirm first hand that deserved its excellent reputation (though mostly in IT) are the DP48/50 and the DP58. The latter being a fair bit larger compared to the size which is being discussed, but well worth considering for anyone who can stretch to 18+m.
 
petem said:
. Furthermore​, the main bulkheads are also laid up and glassed into the hull the old fashioned way.
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Pete --
I,am thinking a "main bulkhead " is something that's glassed into the hull following all the contours of the V ,a sold piece going right up the deck moulding .Obviously they can and are cut with a door way -say from a bow cabin to a saloon .,as well as minor holes under the cabin sole for services etc .

A partition is a something else -- this seperates the internal layout into cabins etc ,it may be connected to the deck moulding but it's not quite actually fully fitted to the V profile and glassed in there ,it's connected to the inside skin of the liner or just anywhere on the cabin sole to as the name suggests compartmentalise the vast open spaces .

Whilst FL may indeed glass mat in certain bits n bobs of marine ply in and arround the glassed in foam cells or grid before attaching the inner skin /liner , and I presume at least fab up a proper bulkhead around the engines ?
I can,t see how you can make loads of vertical bulkheads in the full definition ( top to bottom ) to break up the interior + and add strength ( Trad method ) AND then fit a separate moulded liner over those ?

The fine distinction is bulk head and partition ,it's important IMHO.
 
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