Newby looking @ SoF

[Portofino]

+1.

Another couple of great options from a yard for which by now I can confirm first hand that deserved its excellent reputation (though mostly in IT) are the DP48/50 .

Yes DP 48/50 like hens teeth a great Med boat ---- made the same way as Sunseekers :encouragement:
Is there still an owner occupier interest @ the yard ? .

 

[petem]

Pete --
I,am thinking a "main bulkhead " is something that's glassed into the hull following all the contours of the V ,a sold piece going right up the deck moulding .Obviously they can and are cut with a door way -say from a bow cabin to a saloon .,as well as minor holes under the cabin sole for services etc .

A partition is a something else -- this seperates the internal layout into cabins etc ,it may be connected to the deck moulding but it's not quite actually fully fitted to the V profile and glassed in there ,it's connected to the inside skin of the liner or just anywhere on the cabin sole to as the name suggests compartmentalise the vast open spaces .

Correct. From what I can recall the Fairline bulkheads between the engine room are "glassed in" sections (top to bottom) as is the anchor compartment bulkhead. There may be other similar bulkheads, I can't remember (JFM has some great pics).

Whilst FL may indeed glass mat in certain bits n bobs of marine ply in and arround the glassed in foam cells or grid before attaching the inner skin /liner , and I presume at least fab up a proper bulkhead around the engines ?
I can,t see how you can make loads of vertical bulkheads in the full definition ( top to bottom ) to break up the interior + and add strength ( Trad method ) AND then fit a separate moulded liner over those ?

The fine distinction is bulk head and partition ,it's important IMHO.

Firstly, Fairline DON'T USE A GRID!. AFAIK a grid is a complete piece that is bonded onto the hull in one.

Fairline make the stringers by hand rolling matt and resin formed around pieces of foam, directly onto the hull. Stringer by stringer, one by one! Up to this point I suspect that a Fairline and SS hull are identical (SS may use wood instead of foam to form the stringers but that doesn't affect the strength AFAIK).

The next stage is where I suspect SS anf FL differ. SS make their floors and internal partitions using ply. Fairline use a liner which has slots for internal partitions (ply) to drop into (these are glassed in). Finally the top moulding is dropped onto the boat (more slots for the partitions to fit into).

Happy to stand corrected if I've misunderstood anything!

 

[Portofino]

Firstly, Fairline DON'T USE A GRID!. AFAIK a grid is a complete piece that is bonded onto the hull in one.

Fairline make the stringers by hand rolling matt and resin formed around pieces of foam, directly onto the hull. Stringer by stringer, one by one! Up to this point I suspect that a Fairline and SS hull are identical (SS may use wood instead of foam to form the stringers but that doesn't affect the strength AFAIK).

Happy to stand corrected if I've misunderstood anything!

here's a recent pic ( sorry no PB ) of a Fl in construction -- you can see the glassed in foam sq,s taking on the appearance and function of a grid -just because it s made in the boat I think it's a grid work of foam filed strengthening ?
Dark yellow colour squares

http://www.yachtingmagazine.com/fairline-yachts-adds-new-production-facility

Here's a recent pic of a Sunseeker -- you can see just a few glassed in beams stringers No grid pattern and how the bulkheads are painted grey below the floor level , with cut outs for services etc -no liners or foam sq,s
The rafters are what they build in -joiners -solid and fit the cabin sold -- no sqeaks n rattles and easy to access below and more importantly survey .
No adhesive is used cos there a no liner to glue down its all either glassed in heavey mat or plain joinery
No visable "grid "patern
http://www.mby.com/news/free-sunsee...ur-45103/attachment/fitting-the-deck-supports

So one can see what I mean,t by "trad " and "grid "

 

[petem]

here's a recent pic ( sorry no PB ) of a Fl in construction -- you can see the glassed in foam sq,s taking on the appearance and function of a grid -just because it s made in the boat I think it's a grid work of foam filed strengthening ?
Dark yellow colour squares

http://www.yachtingmagazine.com/fairline-yachts-adds-new-production-facility

Here's a recent pic of a Sunseeker -- you can see just a few glassed in beams stringers No grid pattern and how the bulkheads are painted grey below the floor level , with cut outs for services etc -no liners or foam sq,s
The rafters are what they build in -joiners -solid and fit the cabin sold -- no sqeaks n rattles and easy to access below and more importantly survey .
No adhesive is used cos there a no liner to glue down its all either glassed in heavey mat or plain joinery
No visable "grid "patern
http://www.mby.com/news/free-sunsee...ur-45103/attachment/fitting-the-deck-supports

So one can see what I mean,t by "trad " and "grid "

OK, now we're getting somewhere. If I refer you back to the article that you posted the other day http://www.yachtingmagazine.com/fairline-yachts-adds-new-production-facility you'll see that the concern around grids are those from that are pre-moulded (and then bonded to the hull) and in particular where they are "included to take over the role of conventional framing systems such as individually laid up glass-on-wood stringers".

As I've said, FL individually lay-up their stringers (the old fashioned way). They might be in a grid type pattern doesn't make them a grid!

And thanks for finding that picture, it shows the bulkheads nicely and also the (hand laid) stringers.

 

[MapisM]

Yes DP 48/50 like hens teeth a great Med boat ---- made the same way as Sunseekers :encouragement:
Is there still an owner occupier interest @ the yard ? .

Not anymore, sadly. As for several other IT yards which didn't survive after the 2008 financial meltdown, I'm afraid that the result of their best efforts is now history.

 

[petem]

Porto, I came across a couple of S/S build pics...

What do you think they are doing?

And another one...

What are those white strips?

 

[markc]

What are those white strips?

More arguing I think

 

[Portofino]

Pete ,
Top big pic they appear to be vac bagging a roof or deck mould -it's upside down .They make boats up to 155 ft and have a 175 on the drawing board .That piece is probably NOT going to permantly submerged -

The 4 lower appear like a hull and they are bonding foam formers stringers I think but only 4 or so
They are not making a grid -the hull ,the green hull is pretty thick as it is and heavey .It's the bow area the strike point -gonna take a pounding the wave crash point ,

They don,t need a high density glassed in grid to support a thinner outer skin followed by liner bonded onto that to make a sandwich .The fundamental weakness is the gob or glue or paste or adhesive to cement the liner to the grid Sq,s .
Accept the other side of the grid has been hand glassed in loads of little box section s .You have ONLY the potential to delamination on one side not both like a preformed grid made seperately and then bonded in both sides .
I think that's we're we disagree re the terminology .I say it looks like a grid

You say it's not a grid cos it's only glued on one side -where it meets it liner ?

But agree SS use a few comparatively to FL massive stringers are foam cored .Its the box section of glass and mat ,general weight of that build up that counts .I don,t see an issue with using foam in that way or foam per se .But the SS by any stretch of imagination does not resemble a grid like the FL
There's no linner going in to the SS either let's no loose sight of that !

If FL,s outer skin was the SAME weight as a SS ,the hull ,then the multitude of 100,s of cells in a grid pattern ,then the extra liner ,then the bulkheads into the liner ,then it would be too heavey ,a slug .
But the FL double skin ( hull n liner ) + hand made foam grid is lighter --so where's the weight been taken out ?

SS the green hull is thicker and taken longer to make in the mould ,does not need as much ADITIONAL foam bits n pieces EVERY WHERE ,just a few where it counts as the pics show in my eyes .

Pete I,am not in any way criticising the FL method or bigging up the trad method SS still use + many others mainly small Italian yards small as in the number of hulls made not size .

As MapisM pointed out the FL method is faster - more production line ish arguable cheaper in labour because the initial skin hull is thinner -the time is the layering up and waiting for each layer to cure before adding more Matt etc. The plug is occupied longer before its liberated to start another ,
The grid sides n tops are thin and probably knocked up quickly while liner is being made hence the high density appearance .,but as said it needs to be high density to put back strength in the outer skin .
Once the two are united -glued together the plug can be liberated ,leaving a v strong hull unit and light ----er until it delaminates at the adhesive joint .
E

 

[petem]

Well I think you are making a rather bug assumption that the skin of a Fairline hull is thinner than that of S/S. I don't know whether that is the case or not.

But I think you are still missing the point about 'grids'. The surveyor article that you linked to was referring to pre-made one piece grids that are then glued to the hull. That's not the same as glassing individual stingers to the hull a la Fairline. The fact that they are in the shape of a grid is completely irrelevant.

 

[Portofino]

pre-made one piece grids [/B]that are then glued to the hull. That's not the same as glassing individual stingers to the hull a la Fairline. The fact that they are in the shape of a grid is completely irrelevant.

Pete I linked Dave Pascoe article in responce to the OP
Enquiring about "liners "
It's I believe provide s a decent read about liners and of course a few other links from a surveyor .
As Allways one has to filter so to speak stuff Mr Google throws up .
I reiterate I never raised or mentioned FL early on in this thread .
You in a nice way ,kinda protecting the brand club member etc mentioned grids .
All I said was words to the effect

"Sunseeker are not "liners as a diplomatic ans to the OP incicently asking which were .Post # 9 here below

Re: Newby looking @ SoF
Originally Posted by Chris H
Interesting read, which boats have a liner ?


Not the Sunseekers .
I need to be diplomatic here as its considered bad forum etiquette to critise other folks boats .
The answer is on an others recent thread you used today

It could have just been left there
But a few posts on you posted this -- Left of field below the OP had a short list FL at that time was not on it and below IMHO is too much information so to speak .He was not asking about how FL,s are made and if he did I would have out of etiquette declined to comment leaving to yourself .
How ever later on I have put fwd the Targa 47 indeed suggesting its the pic of the crop .
Remember I have not passed any comment on liners " good thing or bad thing "
Just told /indicated to the guy that SS "are not ". Sheesh Pete


Pete M
Porto, a liner is a good thing not a bad thing. Fairline's still have bulkheads and stringers glassed in by men with rollers. The liner sits on top and is then glassed in for EXTRA rigidity. Some manufacturers don't do this, they use ply for the floors of the interior. Fairline certainly don't follow this route to save money or cut corners! As I've said before, if you want a tour of the factory to see how they make boats properly, just let me know!

 

[petem]

I'm not arguing about liners!

It's your use of the term 'grids' that I'm questioning. Anyhow, I've made my point the best that I can so we can leave it there (maybe we can continue the conversation over a beer some time).

At least we both agree that FL and S/S have their own ways of building boats and both have been proven over the years to be fit for purpose.