Newbie advice update

[chockswahay]

Hi everyone, a couple of months ago I posted for the first time asking for advice.

I thought you might be interested in an update on my current thoughts.

I have come to the conclusion that the boat I need for cruising should be approx 40ft, have a junk rig and be as simple as possible. I recently went sailing in the Bristol Channel in force 5/6 and came to the conclusion that heeled over for 3 or 4 hours may be fun to hardened sailors but is not what I want from a boat. Also after 2 days 'outside' I was feeling envious of those people in their motor sailor cockpits protected from the elements.

I have gone thru the 'lusting'after new boats phase and can see now that they are generally better suited to weekending etc not pehaps liveaboard.

I have read the 'Cooper' and 'Hill' books with avid interest and feel that the boat for me is somewhere between the two philosophies.

I like steel but wood is easier to repair, I like cheap but bigger is more comfortable.

I realise now that the most important aspect for me (us) is for the boat to be our home first and formost. For us the reason is the destination not purely the journey. So it may take a little longer in a heavy slower boat, but who cares?

I am still left with the quandry of buy or build although at the moment I do favour either the 37.5ft Jay Benford Dory of the 40 ft Bruce Roberts Pilot. Both with a junk rig of course.

Last point.........I am attracted to outboards for aux power (easy to maintain, no holes in hull).........but is this just not practical?

Any thoughts/comments much appreciated

G

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[snowleopard]

a few comments on your ideas-

if you don't like heeling, consider a multihull. for liveaboards the extra space is a huge bonus.

met a crew on a wharram cat who had motored across biscay in a flat calm. they had used something like £500 worth of petrol in their outboard and had decided to fit a diesel. we crossed at the same time with our diesels (at something like twice the speed) and it cost us around £100. the other serious snag with outboards is that in any sort of chop they tend to cavitate, the engine screams every few seconds as the prop comes out and you lose all drive.

a few thoughts on materials:

steel: almost crash proof, no worries about hitting coral but you need to keep on top of the rust.

Aluminium: steel without the rust or weight but care needed to prevent electrolysis. very expensive but the best if you can afford it.

wood: can be leaky, always need to watch for rot. easy to have repaired anywhere in the world.

GRP: waterproof & virtually rot-proof. not good in contact with rocks, rusty fishing boats etc. the easiest for diy repairs by far.

concrete: has an undeservedly bad reputation in the UK so cheap to buy. pretty tough and if you do drop it on a reef and crack it, not too hard to repair. like steel, it's heavy so needs a lot of sail to drive it.

if you're thinking of a self-build to save costs, you could probably do as well in the secondhand market. i have built 2 40-footers from scratch and they each took 2-3 years of all my spare time. i like the work so i didn't mind but if it's just to save a few quid, forget it.

a lot to be said for a junk rig in terms of ease of handling. with a junk rig and an outboard, be prepared to be very patient and to miss out on some destinations because of difficult conditions.

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[ccscott49]

Agree with everything you say, excellent advice, especially the cat idea, with diesel(s). But why Junk rig?

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[Talbot]

I have a cat (Catalac 9m) stacks of room and very suitable for liveaboard. Not brilliant to windward, but thats true for a lot of monohulls of the same era. I bought mine with a petrol outboard which was hopeless. I now have a Yanmah Diesel Outboard. It is an ultra long leg with hydraulic lift. These are not cheap, and they have a very small alternator, however in the 10 years I have had it I have never cavitated - even in a force 7+. It pushes the boat at up to 5 knots directly against a force 7 wind. When sailing, the engine is raised out of the water so cant get caught, and there is no drag. I can even change propellors while still afloat. I have attached a standard outboard steering system to it to help with berthing (1 engine/2 propellors!!!) Economy is comparable with other 27hp engines. If you want more data pm me.

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[Bejasus]

Hi, I too am thinking along the same lines in the not too distant future. Scouring the web for different types of boats and thinking about comfort etc, and have come to the conclusion that the ideal boat for me is a Nauticat 44 Motorsailer, with the island berth version, ketch rigged. loads of room twin heads & showers, good dining area & galley & good comfortable wheelhouse. They also appear to have a great reputation for blue water cruising and are to be found all over the globe. There are also schooner & sloop rigged versions.
See one <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.boats.com/sites/nauticatuk/boatnh?entityid=11409281&mid=1943&showDL=false&showMD>here</A>
This is not the dearest but one of the nicest and have seen one at £95,000. Not sure of your budget. We too are just about to begin sailing and are both in need of experience.

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[chockswahay]

Interesting comments, I will try to address each point (no particular order)

Junk Rig? because they are cheaper, easier to reef, less stress on hull, much less stress on crew and I think they look nice too!

Outboards? point taken, I was thinking of ease of maintenance but have to agree with most of your comments.

Cat? maybe, but they do feel a bit like two very narrow boats side by side to me.

Selfbuild? reason for this one is to have a design I like and an interior better suited to the needs of just 2 crew (not 6 or 8 as is frequently the case). Building my own will allow me more accomodation in a smaller space (in theory).

Steel? Yep, my favoured material and my probable choice.

So when I narrow it down there seems to be little choice out there that fits my particular criteria, HOWEVER..........if anyone has further ideas I remain receptive.

Many thanks

G

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[snowleopard]

interesting thought. if you look <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.freewingmasts.co.uk/>here</A> under 'photographs' you will see pictures of a steel junk-rigged boat. only it's not, the owner converted to freewing because it wouldn't go in anything less than a gale!

you may have difficulty providing enough power for a heavy 40-footer. the key is that if you scale up a design, the displacement increases with the cube of the length but sail area only as the square so bigger boat need disproportionally more sail. look at the successful junk rigs, they are generally small (Jester, kingfisher - the small cruiser design, not ellen's) or ligkweight (Galway Blazer). Badger is both.

There is a lot of research out there about 'chinese lugsails' to give them their technical name. worth reading up on it before you make up your mind.

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[AndrewJ]

there is a make of boat, Colvin Gazelle, steel boat, junk rigged. I've seen a few on the market. I even
thought of buying one but I didn't like the headroom in the aft cabin, at least in the ones I've seen. I do
understand that there is modification of the design on a few boats which give adequate headroom in that
area. I also understand that the majority of these boats are in the "homebuilt" category.

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[mikewilkes]

I agree with you that a cat can provide pleasenter accomadation. Ours is only a wee 32 footer of the old style narrow beam, but she is steel. Keep your eyes on the inside of the bilges and paint em white. That way the rust is more readily see-able. Just remember they rust from the inside out. our bilges are cleaner and checked at least once a month by SWMBO. ( She also will get in there and do the painting too)
As a live aboard you will spend more of your time using your boat as a floating cottage than sailing - so go for a bit of comfort, and a large double bunk!!
Best of luck,
Me and er

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[snowleopard]

very useful point you make about the floating cottage. most people set out with the idea of most of your time being at sea, taken perhaps from charter holidays where you're always moving on to make the most of the limited time. we did a fairly rushed atlantic circuit but still spent only 20% of our time at sea with up to 6 weeks at a time spent in the same place. space to lounge and comfortable sleeping space is as important as sea berths etc.

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[AndrewB]

Don\'t like heeling??

With respect, Chockswahay, you need more experience. Don't make any major committments yet. There is a lot to be said for buying a 25' yacht that you can easily resell, to get in some practice for a season around England.

A yacht that is heeling is one that is in a relatively safe aspect, releasing excess wind pressure, and so is more stable than one bolt upright (broad reaching, running) in the same wind strength, at risk of broaching. After a while, it gets so it is that sense of stability that feels comfortable rather than being upright.

The times when a monohull is heeling is exactly when a catamaran will be pitching, on the open sea. You pays your money ..... anyway, most long distance cruises are planned so as to be mainly downwind.

If it is not a good sailing boat then there will be times when it will drive you wild with frustration at going so slow, or crazy with terror when you do get caught in bad conditions. No end of comfort in harbour will compensate for this.

Your questions about junk rig and outboards are effectively answered by the VERY small number of liveaboard cruisers that use them (other than on their tender).

The majority of people who start a large DIY build project, probably never actually reach the point of using it for long-distance cruising (see Esther's post below). And of those that do, it often takes years more than they planned. Best to buy, even if it is something that needs a major overhaul.

If you seriously think you could build, a steel boat is going to be a LOT easier than a wooden one. The time spent learning to weld is a minor consideration.

I applaud your desire to keep it simple. If you can, you need only aim at a 34 footer - the rest of the space on the average cruiser is taken up with gizmos. The trick is to stick to that philosophy.

 

[chockswahay]

Re: Don\'t like heeling??

I do understand the comment about needing more experience however I do not wish to live aboard a 25 footer for a year only to find that living in such a confined space puts me off the whole idea (!).

Regarding 'heeling' I don't have a problem with this but I don't believe that it all has to be quite so 'gung ho' stuff either. And as you said most cruisers go downwind and a junk rig IS eminently suitable for doing this.

I like the remarks about the boat being a 'floating cottage' and fully agree.

Also I really do want to keep the boat as simple as possible and indeed am still seriously considering steel.

As a matter of interest, does anyone know how wide a boat can be transported on UK roads before police escorts etc have to get involved?

All of your replies are still very much appreciated, thank you.

G

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[snowleopard]

road transport

the max width on single-carriageway roads without police escort is around 3m. you can get detailed advice by phoning your local police traffic dept. i took the components of my cat 80 miles to the coast and the bridgedeck section at about 4.5 m wide had to have an escort but only as far as the M40 at one end and from the M27 to hayling at the other. the transport co. arranged it all.

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[mikewilkes]

Re: road transport

You may find that the haulage company will deal with the police side for you as a matter of course.
We trucked our cat down from the north of scotland to Dover but she is an old design of only 4.09 m. Clarkes in the borders did all the paperwork and they were good.
As for that comment about "floating cottages" and no amount of comfort in harbour etc, Snowleopard has already how little time they spent at sea - even on a "rushed" atlantic trip.

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[penfold]

Re: Don\'t like heeling??

I think the only thing I can add to the discussion is this; try out as many boats as you can blag your way onto. Chat to people in harbours, marinas, etc. Get yourself invited on board and poke around to see how much storage, headroom, tankage is available. Certainly, when it comes to homebuilds, that's the only way you'll get to see them other than in a brokerage, and in my experience a lot of homebuilds that get put up for sale are not very representative of the breed, being shabby and/or badly built.

Cheers,
david

<hr width=100% size=1>This candidate has low personal standards, and continually fails to meet them.

 

[Abigail]

Re: Don\'t like heeling??

Couple more points to this discussion:

a) however much you don't like sailing the boat needs to be safe - I don't mean to start a flame war about multis vs monos, but making sure its one you and whoever you sail with can comfortably handle the time you do get caught in bad weather. Some new guys aboard a cat (jenneau, 43') in our marina just spent four years coming back from teh Caribbean the long way round, so it clearly can be done (and tehy do have tons of space!)
b) the Pardeys did some v interesting sums (in the cost-concious sailor I think) about the time it took to build vs the cost of buying and doing some work, and they reckon that pound for pound of boat weight it works out much the same. They are (on this point) comendably unopinionated, having built both theirs - but do comment on how many half-built boats there are.

Which is really the main point - which is to go! I agree that 25' would be unbearable. Maybe something like a 28' Twister - v good reliable seaboat, not too expensive 2nd hand, you coud live on it for a while and then trade up - or swallow the anchor if after all you hate it!

Either way - enjoy the research



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[chockswahay]

Re: Don\'t like heeling??

Abigail........

You may have misunderstood me, I like sailing, just not on my ear! As regards just 'get on and go' I agree fully. There are times when it is too easy to just take the comfortable option and do nothing, I want to avoid this at all costs.

Something that is having a big influence on my choice of boat is that in an ideal world it should be capable of ocean going and still able to cruise the larger canal and river networks..........so not too big or wide and with a shallow draught!

As to building my own this would provide me with a more personally suited boat however do I really want to spend 2000 to 4000 hours building it??!! Also the matter of transport to water is a serious consideration (we live in the country 50 miles away from the sea)

The funny thing is that there do not seem to be as many 'ex live-aboards' up for sale as everyone suggests............am I looking in the wrong place?

A final point.........many articles suggest only invest as much money in a live-aboard as one can afford to lose (in event of terminal damage/theft) unless one is prepared to pay high insurance bills (if available!)............any comments anyone?

Cheers

G


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[AndrewB]

Insurance.

It's a good bit more for long-distance cruising than normal, but not outrageously so if you can accept a high excess.

All the insurers I've approached for this in the past have required there to be at least two people aboard with Yachtmaster qualifications.

These days I believe one has a duty to carry third-party insurance, that's only fair to other people. Moreover many marinas, and even whole countries (Spain) insist on this.

 

[snowleopard]

Re: Insurance.

our premium went up from 750 for uk coastal to around 1300 for full atlantic cover. they did however insist on 4 experienced crew for the crossings and reduced 3rd party cover by half in US waters!!

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