New VHF: AIS or Not

[Deleted member 36384]

Hello,

I need a new VHF radio which must have stand alone GPS for DSC and Command Mic Option. I don't have an AIS system fitted and my plotter is too old to display AIS. I am thinking that if I buy an AIS DSC VHF then I get the benifits of AIS now and next year when I buy a new plotter, I will have AIS on the plotter as well. What do you think? Would a separate AIS system be better?

I can buy the likes of ICOM M4235GE which gives me DSC and built in GPS with no AIS, reasonable cost. More pricy by far is the ICOM M605 Euro but it comes with AIS receiver capability that I can network to a new plotter.

Plotter is likely to be Raymarine's Axiom +, as I want to integrate with my ACU400 Autohelm, that is currently stand alone.

Your advice is appreciated.

BlowingOldBoots

 

[johnalison]

I don't know the equipment you mention but I think that it is better to think of your gear as a system. You may well want to include class B AIS while you are about it, so a VHF that only receives may prove to be redundant.

 

[lustyd]

For me this comes down to space rather than functionality. In my case I went with the V60B from B&G simply to avoid yet another box in the system. Price was about the same, functionality about the same. If I had a lot more space I might have split it out as a separate unit.

 

[sfellows]

I'm not sure how much the ICOM VHF is, but you should certainly look at the Standard Horizon VHFs. The model with GPS and AIS is around £400.

Standard Horizon GX2400GPS/E Fixed DSC VHF With AIS Built In (GX2400GPS/E)

 

[RichardS]

Hello,

I need a new VHF radio which must have stand alone GPS for DSC and Command Mic Option. I don't have an AIS system fitted and my plotter is too old to display AIS. I am thinking that if I buy an AIS DSC VHF then I get the benifits of AIS now and next year when I buy a new plotter, I will have AIS on the plotter as well. What do you think? Would a separate AIS system be better?

I can buy the likes of ICOM M4235GE which gives me DSC and built in GPS with no AIS, reasonable cost. More pricy by far is the ICOM M605 Euro but it comes with AIS receiver capability that I can network to a new plotter.

Plotter is likely to be Raymarine's Axiom +, as I want to integrate with my ACU400 Autohelm, that is currently stand alone.

Your advice is appreciated.

BlowingOldBoots

It's definitely worth going for transmit and receive AIS these days. If the VHF is AIS receive only I'm not sure that it will be worth the extra unless it's just a few quid.

Richard

 

[Rappey]

Stand alone ais tranceiver with WiFi has to be the way to go as it should be compatible with everything now and in the future ?

 

[lustyd]

The thing about the future is we don't know what will happen. WiFi support tells you nothing about what it will interact with or how it will do it.

 

[prv]

A radio with built-in AIS reception is of very limited use without a plotter to display the data - even if the radio can display AIS targets on its screen, it's likely to be too small and clunky to be much help in practice.

If I was planning a significant instrument upgrade like your new plotter nowadays, I would opt for AIS transmit as well as receive. VHFs with transmit capability are rare to non-existent so that means a standalone AIS unit which would leave a receiver-only feature in the VHF almost entirely redundant.

I would choose a non-AIS VHF.

Pete

 

[lustyd]

A radio with built-in AIS reception is of very limited use without a plotter to display the data

Both my V60B and the H60 wireless handset would suggest otherwise. They both display sufficient data in sufficient clarity to be very useful indeed. It's obviously better on the MFD, but it's certainly not useless

 

[laika]

I hesitate to post as there's plenty of info I'm lacking, but fortunately those are mainly "known unknowns".
Personally I subscribe to the DOTADIW ("do one thing and do it well") philosophy so would buy separate VHF and AIS. Most of the integrated receivers are just that: receive only. Many people want to transmit. We've also seen a significant upgrade in AIS units recently (5W SOTDMA class B) and doubtless additional functionality to the AIS protocol in terms of messages will be added over time. It would be nice to be able to upgrade AIS without buying a new radio (or indeed the radio without buying a new VHF, but that's likely to change more slowly).

Selecting your AIS targets from a list on your AIS/VHF unit is all very nice because keying in MMSIs is a PiTA but what you *really* want to be able to do is to set up a call from your plotter. To do that the plotter needs to be able to set up the call and the VHF make it and here's where my knowledge gets sketchy. I believe there are standard NMEA-2000 PGNs and standard NMEA-0183 sentences for call initiation. However I'm not certain that plotters which have both types of interface will use either (they may only use N2K for example). I'm not completely sure that manufacturers will use standard PGNs/sentences. I *certainly* wouldn't assume that because a VHF has integrated AIS I'd be able to set up a call from my plotter.

If I were in the market for a new VHF I'd probably look for one which
* Has NMEA-2000 connectivity
* Can acquire a list of targets from AIS on the N2K bus
* Can make DSC calls initiated over N2K
...and I'd *definitely* confirm with the manufacturer's customer support that all those things are done in a "standard NMEA" way and get a list of compatible plotters and AIS units.
I think the ICOMs should fit the bill but I'd certainly want to check that it works with your intended axiom and non-icom AIS units (I'm guessing it will).

For me the major downside to separate AIS an VHF is having to worry about a splitter or separate antennae but I'd take that for the flexibility of separate units.

 

[lustyd]

The requirement for a separate antenna and GPS doesn't go away with integration due to the requirements for AIS standards.

 

[pvb]

Selecting your AIS targets from a list on your AIS/VHF unit is all very nice because keying in MMSIs is a PiTA but what you *really* want to be able to do is to set up a call from your plotter. To do that the plotter needs to be able to set up the call and the VHF make it and here's where my knowledge gets sketchy. I believe there are standard NMEA-2000 PGNs and standard NMEA-0183 sentences for call initiation. However I'm not certain that plotters which have both types of interface will use either (they may only use N2K for example). I'm not completely sure that manufacturers will use standard PGNs/sentences. I *certainly* wouldn't assume that because a VHF has integrated AIS I'd be able to set up a call from my plotter.

To place a DSC call successfully from the plotter almost always requires you to have a radio which is the same make as the plotter.

 

[PaulRainbow]

To place a DSC call successfully from the plotter almost always requires you to have a radio which is the same make as the plotter.

And at the moment that's limited to Garmin or B&G

 

[prv]

Both my V60B and the H60 wireless handset would suggest otherwise. They both display sufficient data in sufficient clarity to be very useful indeed. It's obviously better on the MFD, but it's certainly not useless

That's good to know. My Standard Horizon's built-in AIS display is bordering on useless - it could work for an ocean crossing where you just want to know that a ship has come into range, but it would be very difficult to try to manage the Channel shipping lanes with it. The Icom screenshots I've seen look similar. But your model numbers make me think Navico, and I guess a plotter manufacturer might be more on the ball with useful situational-awareness displays than a pure radio maker, most of whose products aren't even for marine use.

The requirement for a separate antenna and GPS doesn't go away with integration due to the requirements for AIS standards.

Indeed. The big disappointment with the only integrated model I've seen. I think a lot of us were expecting something that could be plugged straight into one existing VHF aerial. That would have been the main benefit of the thing if it were possible.

Pete

 

[doug748]

Hello,

I need a new VHF radio which must have stand alone GPS for DSC and Command Mic Option. I don't have an AIS system fitted and my plotter is too old to display AIS. I am thinking that if I buy an AIS DSC VHF then I get the benifits of AIS now and next year when I buy a new plotter, I will have AIS on the plotter as well. What do you think? Would a separate AIS system be better?

I can buy the likes of ICOM M4235GE which gives me DSC and built in GPS with no AIS, reasonable cost. More pricy by far is the ICOM M605 Euro but it comes with AIS receiver capability that I can network to a new plotter.

Plotter is likely to be Raymarine's Axiom +, as I want to integrate with my ACU400 Autohelm, that is currently stand alone.

Your advice is appreciated.

BlowingOldBoots

I prefer discrete electronics. If you did want to go down the separate box route you might consider one of these:

They are about 1000 quid, so expensive but you would not need to update your plotter unless you particularly wanted to and would save a little on the VHF.
If you bought a suitable Icom VHF model now, the Vesper will output to it for direct DSC calling to targets, plus the other advantages.
At a pinch it also doubles as a back up navigation tool and can wack out data to mobile devices.

.

 

[Rappey]

And at the moment that's limited to Garmin or B&G

I have an onwa with built in ais. It has all the menus for direct calling from its ais list.
I believe all I need to do is connect the dsc to the plotter and away I go.
Have not got round to doing this yet..

For me the major downside to separate AIS an VHF is having to worry about a splitter or separate antennae

How is that a down side? £50 for a proper ais antenna (it's shorter than a vhf antenna) and £20 for cable. Job done.
A splitter is a lot of money and a join in the coax

 

[prv]

I believe all I need to do is connect the dsc to the plotter and away I go.

It depends whether the VHF understands the messages that the plotter will send it. Some do, some don't. It can be hard to get a straight answer from the documentation.

Pete

 

[laika]

To place a DSC call successfully from the plotter almost always requires you to have a radio which is the same make as the plotter.

And at the moment that's limited to Garmin or B&G

Are you completely sure about that? A standard NMEA PGN/sentence exists. What you're saying is that manufacturers are eschewing the standard and instead using proprietary PGNs/sentences. That may be the case (see previous disclaimer about known unknowns and checking) but I'd find it particularly surprising if ICOM were doing that: They support call initiation from the screen of their (separate) AIS unit but must surely recognise that most people use their radios with other manufacturers kits. Perhaps they are using something proprietary...As I've been pondering this same upgrade I've dropped ICOM a line to ask and will report back.

How is that a down side? £50 for a proper ais antenna (it's shorter than a vhf antenna) and £20 for cable. Job done.

Other than £50 and additional coax, you have to install a new antenna (running cable, drilling holes, more stuff on the rail) and you lose range compared to the masthead. Each to their own though and we've done that question thoroughly before.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Are you completely sure about that? A standard NMEA PGN/sentence exists. What you're saying is that manufacturers are eschewing the standard and instead using proprietary PGNs/sentences. That may be the case (see previous disclaimer about known unknowns and checking) but I'd find it particularly surprising if ICOM were doing that: They support call initiation from the screen of their (separate) AIS unit but must surely recognise that most people use their radios with other manufacturers kits. Perhaps they are using something proprietary...As I've been pondering this same upgrade I've dropped ICOM a line to ask and will report back.

No, i made it all up.

 

[PaulRainbow]

On the subject of AIS antennas, splitter, built in BPS etc, there are models that require none of those. Emtrak have built in GPS receivers and antennas on all B series AIS with some models also having built in splitters and/or wifi and Bluetooth.