New VHF: AIS or Not

[Deleted member 36384]

Thanks everyone for advice. On reflection where I sail is fairly remote and in the time until I buy a new plotter, I very much doubt that AIS on VHF will materially improve safety. Hence for that reason and the other reasons mentioned in the thread I will leave out AIS until I buy a plotter.

The VHF call from plotter feature would be useful but is not essential to me as I see that functionality being more useful to pilots, tug boat operators etc than a leisure sailor with no friends on the water i.e. it is not a feature I would use often, if at all, therfore dialling in MMSI numbers will be a minor chore.

In the meantime I will order a Standard Horizon GX1850GPS/E Fixed DSC VHF With GPS and NMEA 2000. I called to checked NMEA and the ICOM equivalent only has NMEA0183 and would require a device that converts between 0183/2000, so not interested. The standard horizon is at a reasonable price point with the command mike.

 

[lustyd]

Thanks everyone for advice. On reflection where I sail is fairly remote and in the time until I buy a new plotter, I very much doubt that AIS on VHF will materially improve safety.

A transponder built in would certainly improve safety since other marine traffic would be able to see you and your course, and make more useful judgements as to whether you intend to stand on or alter course. Seeing a bunch of dots on any size screen pales into insignificance compared to this!

 

[johnalison]

A transponder built in would certainly improve safety since other marine traffic would be able to see you and your course, and make more useful judgements as to whether you intend to stand on or alter course. Seeing a bunch of dots on any size screen pales into insignificance compared to this!

I feel uncomfortable with suggesting that anyone ought to spend money on this or that equipment for safety reasons, other than for the well-known basics. It seems that Scotland is relatively devoid of shipping hazards, and while I am a great fan of AIS, I am happy to accept B-O-B's assertion that he is content with what he has.

 

[lustyd]

I didn't suggest they ought to spend more, I was addressing the statement that built in AIS wouldn't improve safety - it very clearly would. The value proposition is an entirely separate discussion

 

[harvey38]

I opted for a DSC radio and command Mike for the upper helm, I'll wait to get a Class B or B+ in the near future. I don't understand the point in an AIS receiver only as you may see others but others won't see you, if everyone opted for this, there would be nothing see so makes AIS redundant.

 

[pvb]

I opted for a DSC radio and command Mike for the upper helm, I'll wait to get a Class B or B+ in the near future. I don't understand the point in an AIS receiver only as you may see others but others won't see you, if everyone opted for this, there would be nothing see so makes AIS redundant.

Most small boat skippers are primarily concerned about avoiding interaction with shipping, and AIS receive is good for that (with a connected plotter). If all small boats were to transmit Class B/B+, the system would be so confusing people would turn it off.

 

[johnalison]

I didn't suggest they ought to spend more, I was addressing the statement that built in AIS wouldn't improve safety - it very clearly would. The value proposition is an entirely separate discussion

Perhaps, but although the statement that a transmitter would improve safety doesn't include an injunction to buy one, the statement carries with it the implication that buying one would be desirable. I like to feel that I can put in a word for those new to sailing and doing it on a limited budget and with limited equipment, because I have vivid memories of doing the same for many years.

 

[Rappey]

In the meantime I will order a Standard Horizon GX1850GPS/E

I bought that one with the crazy loud but small ram4 Mike. Has a nice big display screen in an attactive blue , very easy to read. You will not be dissapointed.
You can select between nmea 0183 or 2000.

 

[[70521]]

I don't understand the point in an AIS receiver only as you may see others but others won't see you.

Try single handing an eight meter sailing boat across a traffic separation scheme on a dark and stormy night and the luxury of being able to call up the big lump of steel off your port side by name just to make sure they know you are there.

 

[lustyd]

Perhaps, but although the statement that a transmitter would improve safety doesn't include an injunction to buy one, the statement carries with it the implication that buying one would be desirable. I like to feel that I can put in a word for those new to sailing and doing it on a limited budget and with limited equipment, because I have vivid memories of doing the same for many years.

I do agree it's not necessary, hardly any of these toys are.

 

[laika]

As I've been pondering this same upgrade I've dropped ICOM a line to ask and will report back.

And here's the reporting back bit after I asked some questions as a prospective purchaser concerned about interconnection with other manufacturers' kit. I do not necessarily believe all the responses: the support folk do not necessarily know the engineering details.

Garmin: Call set up only via N2K. Assured me that all call setup was standards based. I asked them which PGN was used for call setup and they said 129808 which I *think* (disclaimer: not an N2K expert) is the rough equivalent of the -0183 "DSC" sentence used for call notification radio->plotter (it has also been suggested that the DSC sentence can be used the other way for call setup). When I pointed out that the garmin plotter manuals list this as receive only, they revised it to 129799 (radio frequency, mode, and power), but this doesn't seem to have the right fields, so I'm not sure I'm much the wiser.

Raymarine: Not implemented but a high priority feature request and they say they'll be trying to implement it in a standards-compliant way for interoperability (but no details...)

Navico: ignored support query.

The most interesting one is ICOM. The latest generation of ICOM radios accept call initiation over NMEA-0183 ONLY (this includes between the MA-510TR and the M605 both of which have N2K connectivity. ICOM radios also accept call setup from vesper AIS units with screens (e.g. vision). ICOM weren't sure whether the sentence used for call setup was proprietary . Vesper thought it was. However both the ICOM and Vesper AIS manuals list DSC as a *transmitted* sentence and I can't think of any reason they'd be transmitting a DSC sentence if not for call setup (perhaps someone else can?).

If we knew how the vesper/icom->icom call setup worked this would be a nice feature to add into OpenCPN. Sadly I have neither an appropriate vesper nor an icom AIS to play with. Unfortunately my icom radio is too old to have this functionality which (along with prudence regarding not messing with radio comms without full understanding) prevents me from experimenting to find out if the call setup functionality suggested on the continuouswave site actually works.

What we could do with here is a nice friendly person (or friendly marine installer with access to this kit) to tap a line off the 4800 NMEA out of an MA-5x0TR or an appropriate vesper (WMX850 and vision2...maybe others which have a screen?) and snoop the sentences sent when you try to initiate a call to an AIS target (hopefully either a mate nearby or with the nmea connector pulled out of the VHF).

 

[Refueler]

I've just gone through this same ...

My Cobra 55 DSC radio failed after excellent service.
My Lowrance 3500C plotter screen failed ... after also giving excellent service.

So what to do ?

I looked at various options and in the end decided to go for a KP39A Onwa plotter with Transponder AIS ... so I send B, but receive both A + B. The Cobra 77 with inbuilt GPS was on a deal - so went for that.

Happy ? You bet. I'm not going to try and convince to buy same as me ... each have their own brand preference. But the decision to have GPS in the VHF was so much better than having a GPS feed as I had from plotter before.
The Plotter has a bigger and better screen than the VHF to show the AIS.

I spoke to various Electronics guys and Marine Installers before purchase and they all basically said - TWO ANTENNA ... they all advised against splitters .. and said the items I mentioned were good budget gear.

Once installed - have been pleasantly surprised. The ONWA Plotter is fast to plot ... clear. The K Charts are free to download and reasonably detailed. As good as the Nauticpath I had with Lowrance and they took me safely south coast UK and Solent .. all Baltics ... Very happy.
The Cobra 77 DSC GPS VHF also is fast to display position - screen is clear and easy to read.
Even with my AIS antenna on the pushpit rail - I can receive AIS targets from Baltic while boat sits in back garden about 5 miles and residential estates between us and the sea.

I could have spent a fortune on this ... but in the end - for less than 700 quid including Customs etc. - I have a complete working setup.

Alan at Aves Marine in UK was absolute gold to deal with. 101% genuine guy and pleasure to talk to.

 

[Refueler]

I have an onwa with built in ais. It has all the menus for direct calling from its ais list.
I believe all I need to do is connect the dsc to the plotter and away I go.
Have not got round to doing this yet..

How is that a down side? £50 for a proper ais antenna (it's shorter than a vhf antenna) and £20 for cable. Job done.
A splitter is a lot of money and a join in the coax

I too bought ONWA and very glad I did to. It transmits B and receives A + B ... it has compatibility with literally all other gear such as VHF's etc. via NMEA. Very good free charts ... and all at a price that even 'her indoors' appreciates.
Some make issue about need to have NMEA 2000 .... yeh well - I had 2000 with my last gear and it was unnecessary. Not only that but having to have terminating resistors and all that crap turned me right off .. took me back to co-ax PC networks !

All the marine Electronics guys and installers I know - all advised AGAINST splitters ... they all said get a separate antenna - even if you only put it on the rail ... how right they were !

 

[Refueler]

It depends whether the VHF understands the messages that the plotter will send it. Some do, some don't. It can be hard to get a straight answer from the documentation.

Pete

NMEA ... standard sentences .... so whats the problem, ?

 

[Refueler]

Most small boat skippers are primarily concerned about avoiding interaction with shipping, and AIS receive is good for that (with a connected plotter). If all small boats were to transmit Class B/B+, the system would be so confusing people would turn it off.

Many already DO turn it off ... believe me - FACT. Forget all the rules and IMO stuff about having to have it on etc.

Its similar with DSC VHF ... ships get off shore and some turn it off .. fed up with the babble and DSC alarms ... I know its probably making some of you think bad of them ... but you haven't been up there on the bridge suffering the crap that comes in !! Sorry to be blunt.

 

[PaulRainbow]

NMEA ... standard sentences .... so whats the problem, ?

The problem is, what was being discussed won't work over 0183 and certainly won't work with your setup.

 

[Refueler]

The problem is, what was being discussed won't work over 0183 and certainly won't work with your setup.

Fair enough ... I reserve right to disagree ... as always !!

 

[pvb]

Fair enough ... I reserve right to disagree ... as always !!

Disagreeing won't change the facts!

 

[Refueler]

Disagreeing won't change the facts!

Aw cmon ... Paul and I have an understanding !! Facts or no facts ....

But back to the subject ... I'm wary of accepting its not possible as I have similar info to another guy with an Onwa ... so that is why I reserve judgement. Wouldn't you till seeing whether it works or not ?

I'm not stupid enough when someone says its hot - don't touch ... to then put my hand on to test ... but when its something that is not unsafe to test ... then its nice to be 100% based on observation. I work in the shipping world and oil ... believe me when I say - you have never met such a bunch of crooks ... makes you check everything yourself.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Aw cmon ... Paul and I have an understanding !! Facts or no facts ....

But back to the subject ... I'm wary of accepting its not possible as I have similar info to another guy with an Onwa ... so that is why I reserve judgement. Wouldn't you till seeing whether it works or not ?

I'm not stupid enough when someone says its hot - don't touch ... to then put my hand on to test ... but when its something that is not unsafe to test ... then its nice to be 100% based on observation. I work in the shipping world and oil ... believe me when I say - you have never met such a bunch of crooks ... makes you check everything yourself.

Easy test, select an AIS target on the Onwa and initiate a DSC VHF call. Bet you 50p it won't work.