New to running backstays

[KompetentKrew]

My boat has a pair of running backstays for the inner foresail, which I've never used because I'm afraid of them and of breaking something.

A couple of times recently I've been reminded of the old adage about reefing early, and I'm starting to feel that I really should be using the inner jib rather than the genoa. I've been using the genoa partly furled, and it just seems wrong (I'm probably causing excessive wear to the genoa), especially in a bit of a blow.

What should everyone know about running backstays, to be sure of not breaking things, please?

The boat is a Van De Stadt Caribbean 40, and I have recently been mindful of a conversation I had a bit over a year ago with the proprietor of Gosport Boatyard. He is not a garrulous man, but remarked that my boat has a "big stick" and that I should be sure to reef her in good time. Indeed, I have learned that she can be terrifying if over-canvassed.

I guess it goes without saying that the genoa is masthead and the inner jib is fractional - the inner jib is attached at the upper spreader, 2m or 3m below the masthead. Next to them is also attached a pair of running backstays which are parked on the toe rail, a couple of metres behind the shrouds, when not in use. I'm given to understand that I unfurl the jib, get the boat under sail and then bring the appropriate backstay back to a hard point near the cockpit (outboard of the sheet winch), or is this the wrong way around?

As always, I appreciate any advice.

 

[Quandary]

We had a Sigma 38, 3/4 rig so it came with runners, we rarely used them even when racing as the mast was fairly stiff. If we had a long beat or fetch in a stopping sea in really strong winds we would put them on, a 2-1 rope purchase on a wire stay with a single flying block, leading up from a strong point on the quarter, back to a snatch block with becket and tensioned using the spinnaker winches. Keep the upper block high enough to avoid it reaching anywhere near your head.
If your rig is not too bendy you may be able to get away without them, perhaps talk to an experienced local rigger?

 

[[2574]]

Our last boat had “checkstays”, how a checkstay is different from a running back stay I’m not sure, they’re identical in construction. We learned the hard way that our rig was specified by Selden as needing checkstays.


Like your boat ours has an inner forestay for a jib/staysail. A former owner had modified the original fitted checkstays to a fixed length wire that was attached at deck level to a spare car on the genoa car track. It was less than useless and our rigger suggested removing so we did. It made little difference. However one day we had a big sea and the boat was taking off as she crested. As she landed the mast was visibly pumping. We consulted a rigger who consulted Selden. So we fitted proper checkstays with a block and tackle. The advice from the rigger was deploy in a blow but we soon started deploying as a matter of course, it’s then ready should the wind get up.

So our routine is to deploy on leaving the berth, leave slack. If the wind gets up over fifteen knots then pull hard up on the windward side. Reverse when tacked so leeward goes lazy and new windward comes up tight. No more mast pumping, result.

Our checkstays attached to the toe rail probably about 3m aft of the mast, pull on it as hard as you like, you’re not going to break anything unless you start winching - which you wouldn’t.

 

[KompetentKrew]

So our routine is to deploy on leaving the berth, leave slack. If the wind gets up over fifteen knots then pull hard up on the windward side. Reverse when tacked so leeward goes lazy and new windward comes up tight. No more mast pumping, result.

So you leave the leeward one attached but loose?

I think mine would interfere with the boom on at least some points of sail.

 

[[2574]]

So you leave the leeward one attached but loose?

I think mine would interfere with the boom on at least some points of sail.

Yes, leeward attached but loose. If it interferes with the boom then either leave it looser (untidy) or you’ll have to park it each time (a bore).

 

[RJJ]

Our last boat had “checkstays”, how a checkstay is different from a running back stay I’m not sure, they’re identical in construction. We learned the hard way that our rig was specified by Selden as needing checkstays.


Like your boat ours has an inner forestay for a jib/staysail. A former owner had modified the original fitted checkstays to a fixed length wire that was attached at deck level to a spare car on the genoa car track. It was less than useless and our rigger suggested removing so we did. It made little difference. However one day we had a big sea and the boat was taking off as she crested. As she landed the mast was visibly pumping. We consulted a rigger who consulted Selden. So we fitted proper checkstays with a block and tackle. The advice from the rigger was deploy in a blow but we soon started deploying as a matter of course, it’s then ready should the wind get up.

So our routine is to deploy on leaving the berth, leave slack. If the wind gets up over fifteen knots then pull hard up on the windward side. Reverse when tacked so leeward goes lazy and new windward comes up tight. No more mast pumping, result.

Our checkstays attached to the toe rail probably about 3m aft of the mast, pull on it as hard as you like, you’re not going to break anything unless you start winching - which you wouldn’t.

Checkstays are used to stop "pumping" and to counteract pre-bend in the mast - acting against the bending forces of shrouds, particularly aft-swept ones, and backstays. Checkstays would typically attach halfway to the "hounds" where the top set of shrouds meets the forestay.

Running backstays are used to put tension into the forestay, so the jib luff is held in a near-straight line which is better for pointing. Letting the jib luff sag a bit puts depth into the sail, which may be better for fine reaching. You remember those pics of IACC boats folding in half? That's because they wound on the runners damn tight, literally pulling the mast down through the hull, which couldn't take it. That won't be a problem for you.

Running backstays can be used in conjunction with checkstays, typically on a fractional rig boat with a bendy mast...then it's more obvious what they both do, and why it's different.

Your setup can be used as as runners for the inner foresail (when used) or checkstays (otherwise) or not at all. If as I imagine your mast is a ramrod stiff, straight pole, then applying checkstays won't affect your speed but it may make it more comfy by reducing pumping, and also maybe reduce wear on the rest of the standing rigging.

Whenever in use you have the windward winched on tight. The leeward one dangles around. When you are tacking close-hauled to close-hauled, it's enough to ease the leeward one a couple of feet and it won't bother you. When you need to bear away to a beam reach or beyond, you would typically tuck the leeward runner or checkstay down to the shroud using a hook/bungy or something to that effect.

 

[KompetentKrew]

Thanks very much, all. Very helpful & informative replies.

 

[DoubleEnder]

If I didn’t use my runners I’d have no mast.... I have a hollow wooden mast and a 5/8 rig. The standing backstay is useful to tie flags on to, and to hold when taking a pee over the back. The runners hold it all up. They are dyneema, on highfield levers. I can let the leeward one right out to avoid chafe, though you have to be careful not to then get it caught round the spreaders heheheh

 

[cherod]

as gdallas says, be mindfull to let the leeward one out or you can damage the main sail , best to then secure it . many multis ( maybe monos also ) have them on a pulley , i think it makes it easy for racing / quick tacking

 

[William_H]

Perhaps it is just a question of names but I always thought that check stays were an addition to the running back stays to add additional pull back at an intermediate point up the mast (half way) and run from a point on the running back stay to the mast. The top of the running back stay of course goes to that point usually afraction from the top of the mast to support a forestay be it main or inner. So check stay is an addition to a running back stay.
Anyway running back stays can be a real menace when you have of lot of tacking to do. Not a problem in open ocean with long tacks.
It is as said highly unlikely that you can do damage with too much tension on a running back stay. Although I sailed on one racing boat which had a load gauge in the forestay with a readout in the cockpit so you could set the runners precisely. However a simple check is to look up the mast from bellow looking for bend. Some bend at the top of the inner forestay is OK but you should be able to pull some of that out to closer to straight with tension on the runners.
With runners you take them to a point as far aft and outwards as possible so that you get more force at the mast fro less tension on the runners. The other option is to take them to a point near the mast and down to a point in from gunwhales. This would require so much tension to do the job that they become fractional shrouds so requiring good chain plates and turnscrew tensioners. However being froward they could remain there permanently with only some chafe on the main sail when running. In other words like many fractional rigs. But the result is less effect than runners from the stern. Diamonds can help do the same job and aft swept spreaders can support the middle of the mast.
So just how much support does your mast need from running back stays? That is the question perhaps best answered by yacht rig designers. It is question of mast inherent stiffness, it's length and just how much pressure you put on the rig . Only you cna decide what leaves you comfortable. In some cases it is just case of reducing the panting of the middle of the mast other cases it is to tension the forestay with the jib on to remove sag in other case it is to avoid collapse of the rig.

 

[Neeves]

On check stays, ours were attached to the genoa track and had a block purchase system, and cleat on the lower block assembly (like a mainsheet system). when they were on the leeward side the purchase system was loose and they did not interfere with the main.

Ours was a fractional rig and we needed the runners to provide forestay tension, which effectively what you will need, and there is plenty of good information on the whys and wherefores in the earlier posts - all good stuff.

If you are short crewed it would be common for the helm to load up and unload the runners at a tack. Load up the lazy, leeward runner, winch handle in winch (obviously one within reach of the helm), call out the tack, drop the windward runner, as you tack grind on the new windward runner. Hopefully the mainsheet has been set amidships, the other crew tacks the headsail and when the tack is completed trim the main and head sail.

But don't be afraid of runners - they will make a hard beat much more efficient and steady the whole rig in a sea.

Make sure the runner blocks are above head height - they will do you serious damage. Assuming you have blocks. Place a small bullet block high up the back stay. Attach both runner blocks together at either end of some decent bungy cord with the cord through the bullet block. When you tension one runner the other block is lifted, by the bungy, to the little bullet block (keeping the block well above danger height). But the bungy needs to be rigged such that you can have both runners on at the same time, as just before a tack, one is under tension and one is hand tight. Its pretty simple stuff - you just need to get the length of bungy right.

Jonathan

 

[differentroads]

I have a cutter with running backstays. My mast is exceptionally stiff and sturdy for a 10m boat and I don't often put the runners on, especially on reach. But I should. The inner forestay is tensioned by a wheel so I can get it nice and tight. Tight enough to add prebend to the mast as soon as theres anything of a blow. That causes the luff of the mainsail to lose shape and flutter. In a blow, like the F6 we had last weekend, the 30kn gusts were causing the flutter to turn into a hard machine gun-like rattle which has shaken out the pins of the sliders at the battens and will be doing the sailcloth damage.

So there may be less obvious dangers in not using the runners than the mast breaking.

The good news is that what sold me on converting my boat from a sloop to a cutter - less heeling and easier handling in a blow - is true. My furling headsail causes much more heeling than my staysail in a blow, and causes a lot of weather helm too (something about the underwater shape of my hull and/or the amount of gear stowed forward seems to depress the bow and the boat to want to round up.) If you notice those effects on your boat, its time to get to grips with your runners! ?

 

[differentroads]

The other great benefit of running backstays is for MOB recovery.

About five years ago I took part in an on-the-water exercise to get an unconcious or hypothermic person on board - a very patient guy in a wetsuit. It took two men half an hour to rig up a halyard and other gear amidships to haul him out of the water. And even then they could only get him as far as the toerail. He had to get himself on board under a guardwire between stanchions.

This sobering exercise inspired me to devise MOB recovery with my wife. The best way that we could devise was using our 4:1 running backstay with the tail on a winch. It took that much mechanical advantage for my 10st wife to raise 13st me from lying on a low pontoon to our guardrails.