New sails

[Kerenza]

Time has come for a new suit of sails. Still not sure what to choose or even the sailplan.

Bavaria match 42
Options sailplan - (3 reef main definite), boat came with well worn furling 95% blade laminate headsail, but since destroying the racing main have been experimenting using the 135% Roller reefing genoa with the cruising main, both quantum cruising laminates.
Crew love the genoa, which gets a good rating as a single headsail, great in light wind, easily adjusted during the race.

I rather like the look of gpl lite skin, which means no reefing genoa. Any experience? Supposedly very long lived for a laminate, so can stay flaked / furled week on week. I think we do more damage taking sails on and off and stowing than when we're sailing.

If I go radial laminate, therefore no reefing headsail, the only other sail I would include in the wardrobe at the moment is my excellent number 4, so 135% genoa to number 4 is too much of a step. I'd lose the rating allowance anyway for having more than one headsail, so perhaps a 105% - 110% workhorse? Rating issue?
Could stil use the 95% until it breaks, which it will.

Any ideas on a 135% reefing headsail cut flat, to set well at 100% ?

Musing allowed.

 

[flaming]

More information required I think!

What rating system are you racing under?
What type of racing - inshore round the cans, ww/lw or offshore?
Sails to be used for both racing and cruising, or is this a pure racing setup?
Experience level of crew / Skipper?
Where are you racing, and what are the "normal" conditions? For example a setup suitable for light wind venues won't work in venues expecting strong winds, and there is also a difference to the sails you might suggest if you're expecting open ocean swell, compared with the Solent for example.
What is your main competition? And what sails are they using?

 

[Kerenza]

More information required I think!

What rating system are you racing under?
What type of racing - inshore round the cans, ww/lw or offshore?
Sails to be used for both racing and cruising, or is this a pure racing setup?
Experience level of crew / Skipper?
Where are you racing, and what are the "normal" conditions? For example a setup suitable for light wind venues won't work in venues expecting strong winds, and there is also a difference to the sails you might suggest if you're expecting open ocean swell, compared with the Solent for example.
What is your main competition? And what sails are they using?

Hi,
Tried not to give too much info as in the Bristol channel we will tick all the boxes. Really a question about GPL LS material and reefing headsail v suit of sails.

We're in IRC, against my wishes.
Bristol channel racing is anything from short windward leward in the bay to 6 hour battles down channel and back, up to Force 7 by club rules.
Cruising sails still usable, but when off cruising for the weekend my point is we do more damage taking them on and off than using them.
Mixed experience crew, from Dinghy instructors to 40 year plus old salts. I'm owner but when crewed up prefer tactics / nav, leaving the driving to others.
As stated we experience most conditions week on week, and its a long fetch up the channel in SW'ly. Add Wind over Tide of 5 knts and have fun. (Ill probably be in the bar.) Club position is you can always reduce sails, its sea state that counts.
Mixed handicap - we sail against ourselves in reality. With my handicap of 1057 and a fast quarter tonner with .874, if they finish on the same day they will win.

M

 

[olly_love]

Hi,
Tried not to give too much info as in the Bristol channel we will tick all the boxes. Really a question about GPL LS material and reefing headsail v suit of sails.

We're in IRC, against my wishes.
Bristol channel racing is anything from short windward leward in the bay to 6 hour battles down channel and back, up to Force 7 by club rules.
Cruising sails still usable, but when off cruising for the weekend my point is we do more damage taking them on and off than using them.
Mixed experience crew, from Dinghy instructors to 40 year plus old salts. I'm owner but when crewed up prefer tactics / nav, leaving the driving to others.
As stated we experience most conditions week on week, and its a long fetch up the channel in SW'ly. Add Wind over Tide of 5 knts and have fun. (Ill probably be in the bar.) Club position is you can always reduce sails, its sea state that counts.
Mixed handicap - we sail against ourselves in reality. With my handicap of 1057 and a fast quarter tonner with .874, if they finish on the same day they will win.

M

we have GPL sails with Lightskin heavy genoa.

its is brilliant, doesnt stretch sets well and is soft and light.
however it will not take the abuse if you are use to cruising sails. no carbon will.
They do not like being bent or flogged but thats the same as all laminates.

 

[Kerenza]

we have GPL sails with Lightskin heavy genoa.

They do not like being bent or flogged but thats the same as all laminates.

Thanks, v. useful, I was led to believe they were happy to be left flaked on the boom, which is perhaps less demanding.

I simply don't have the crew to roll or a place to store 6m of rolled sail every week.

M

 

[olly_love]

Thanks, v. useful, I was led to believe they were happy to be left flaked on the boom, which is perhaps less demanding.

I simply don't have the crew to roll or a place to store 6m of rolled sail every week.

M

Flaking will be fine but not stuffed or folded into bags like some dacrons.

ask your sailmaker for samples of the cloth, and have a play

 

[flaming]

Ok, under IRC the perceived wisdom is that for fractional rigs the additional light wind performance of the overlapping jibs is not worth the hit unless you're in a notorious light wind venue. And unless you're racing that boat with at least 10 people all the time I don't think the overlappers will actually be any faster in more than about 8 knots anyway.
So I would definitely go for a 100 - 105% blade jib, and expect to see a rating drop of about 15 points, maybe more, over the 135% jib.

If you want the best performance you'll need battens, but if your plan is to use the furler these will have to be vertical, which is better than nothing but not ideal. The folding battens can be ok, but I'm led to believe they don't have the longest lifespan.
You'll also want to think about inhaulers. Steep learning curve with these, but in less than about 12 knots with a non overlapping jib in my opinion they are essential.

I'd actually say that a blade and a number 4 would be a good setup. You'll use full main and full blade until overpowered, then 1 reef in main, then change to number 4, then 2 reefs. That's for a cruisier setup - worth noting we carry full main up to 30 knots true, just blading it out upwind. But it sounds like you're more likely to reef.

With racing sails flaking can be ok, and is standard on jibs, but we do roll the main. The real killers though are UV and flogging. It doesn't sound like you're doing the sort of racing that would really benefit from a full top end moulded sail, but a decent set of paneled sails.

 

[Kerenza]

Ok, under IRC the perceived wisdom is that for fractional rigs the additional light wind performance of the overlapping jibs is not worth the hit unless you're in a notorious light wind venue. And unless you're racing that boat with at least 10 people all the time I don't think the overlappers will actually be any faster in more than about 8 knots anyway.
So I would definitely go for a 100 - 105% blade jib, and expect to see a rating drop of about 15 points, maybe more, over the 135% jib.

If you want the best performance you'll need battens, but if your plan is to use the furler these will have to be vertical, which is better than nothing but not ideal. The folding battens can be ok, but I'm led to believe they don't have the longest lifespan.
You'll also want to think about inhaulers. Steep learning curve with these, but in less than about 12 knots with a non overlapping jib in my opinion they are essential.

I'd actually say that a blade and a number 4 would be a good setup. You'll use full main and full blade until overpowered, then 1 reef in main, then change to number 4, then 2 reefs. That's for a cruisier setup - worth noting we carry full main up to 30 knots true, just blading it out upwind. But it sounds like you're more likely to reef.

With racing sails flaking can be ok, and is standard on jibs, but we do roll the main. The real killers though are UV and flogging. It doesn't sound like you're doing the sort of racing that would really benefit from a full top end moulded sail, but a decent set of paneled sails.

Yes - Thats why the previous owner went with that 95% blade with vertical battens, although the original sailmaker agreed it was underpowered in lighter winds.
Remember we are 8 tons and while we can get up to polar in 4knts, even with the genoa it takes some time off wind to get there.
I'm lucky enough to get 8-10 crew most of the time, although there are occasions when we have less. One of the side advantages of the 135% was poling it out when we were undercrewed in heavy weather. Note the 135% single genoa attracts an IRC rating allowance though, in deference to cruising boats.
We also have the inhaulers which will only work with < J headsails due to the placement of the shrouds, and provide hours of fun.

On the last boat I mainsheeted on, I went 50/50 with the owner on a North sails number 1 wonder sail. Fantastic for the first couple of races, but he's since spent so much on repairs, which are patches at best.

I like the idea of the blade and No.4 combination, which is probably a pre race decision. So at 105% and no inhaulers I could well be better off with the 95% and keep them.
As far as the main goes, we reefed the old racing main at 16knts, and second reef at just a bit more, which kept her on her feet at hull speed plus upwind. The cruising main of course is a bit too full to be clever with and I'm rather hoping we can hold the new sails a little longer.....

I'm still waiting for a bad report about GPL LS - seems the racing version of vectran mindset.

 

[Birdseye]

As you yourself have pointed out, you arent really pleased to be IRC so I would question the need to buy the ultimate racing sail anyway. We are NHC as you know and found that the cruising laminate we had on the roller reefing was an excellent compromise. It kept its shape right to the end and with a foam luff it worked acceptably with one reef in, which is as far as we go anyway since that is balanced by reef 3 in the main. The new sail came from Sanders who did an excellent job. But I accept that it isnt yellow or even better a grey sail so it might not be what you want on a boat as fast as yours.

Are you racing Sunday?

 

[Yacht Yogi]

For the kind of racing being proposed here, I'd thoroughly recommend a moulded sail over a laminate because it's far more durable and shape-stable. We have been running a 105% blade jib made in 4T material by One Sails for the RORC offshore series and it has proven to be bomb-proof. The 4T sail is around 20% more expensive than a laminate but I expect to get much more life out of it. I have just added a 4T mainsail to my collection for next season's offshores.

 

[Kerenza]

Bit late replying, been to excellent Lebanese restaurant this evening.
Swmbo fortunately appreciates that the dirty the sail looks the better it is!
Point taken about out and out racing sails but this glp ls seems the best of all world's.
We will be out Sunday. Full crew no Excuses!
Northerly - Glad your RO not me.

 

[Kerenza]

Thanks Yogi - I hadn't thought of the 4t sails but they certainly fit the bill. I wonder is that cloth(?) available to independent sailmakers?

M

 

[Birdseye]

Were you happy with the course Sunday? A certain ebulliant character with a funny named boat had a bit of a moan about using the Ranie.

Bl**dy cold on the balcony.

 

[Kerenza]

Said funny named boat got a bit annoyed when we got him on the rannie, subsequently leaving behind the carnage and grinding noises of 50 pound notes being pasted on the 6ton buoy . Why does the bouy always win?

After that we lost it completely, with the wind too variable. SWMBO thought it a nice course, so that's ok then.
Too short for us, but not your fault, but did keep us warm!

Have settled on 105% blade, as after measuring we can I haul it in after all f we need to. Still waiting for decision about material though.
Choice is between vectran cross cut or gpl ls.

 

[Boo2]

Choice is between vectran cross cut or gpl ls.

Are either of these OK on a furler ? If UV resistance is an issue would a cover make a difference or is being on a furler intrinsically bad for a sail ?

Boo2

 

[Kerenza]

Vectran is bomb proof - it's the nearest cloth now made to the one used on the challenge yachts. Some of which are still being used.
I've spoken to dimension polynant the manufacturers of GPL SL directly who assure me it's OK to furl the material and even store on the furler with an UV cover.
The vectran is much cheaper and several sailmakers says it will do everything well and for a long time - so why don't more racer cruisers use it?

 

[Yacht Yogi]

Laminate sails are fine on a furler - better than being flaked or folded. Best to release halyard tension when you put the boat away at the end of sailing to minimize stretching - just remember to re-tension it a bit before using it next time as it may not unfurl properly with no halyard tension on. UV protection can be provided by a "snakeskin" sock that slides up over the furled sail when you are not using it. It can be hauled up on a spare or spinny halyard, zipping up as you go and then snugged-down with lacing once it's up. Worked fine for me when I had one. Most sailmakers could make you one (for a price). Mine came from Crusader.