New Sails? - Dacron or Laminate??

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swanny

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The boat is a cruising only ketch. I have just ordered Tricut Bainbridge Cruising Mylar sandwich laminate sails from Lee sails in Germany (boat is close by). Now all my sailing buddies are telling me I am crazy to buy laminates for a cruising boat! Lee Sails have not 'Sold'me on the laminates, they pointed out all the options and let me decide. I went for laminate because although we accept their total lifespan is less than Dacron, they should hold their shape for most if not all of that lifespan. Whereas, in my humble opinion, the Dacron will last longer but for the additional lifespan over the laminates will have probably lost most of their useful shape. Am I right or wrong on this. My buddies tell me the roller furler is the problem. It will work the laminate genoa too hard and probably bring on delamination after only three to four years! Could this be true? Are laminate sails not a healthy match with a roller furler? I have ordered beefed up sails with as they quote 'heavey reinforcements' and Lee Sails tell me they are up to the mark for blue water sailing! (I wish!). Buddies tell me tri/radial cut Dacron will hold shape as long or longer than laminate sails or crosscut and will be harder wearing and last longer. Lee Sails didn't discuss with me the option of anything but cross cut (45cm panels) in the Dacron option. Help! He comes to trim the righ and measure up this week!
 
I've a laminate roller jib - North crusing Norlam. It's now 3 years old and showing no signs of age. I'm happy with it.

Advantages of laminate - it is lighter than the equivalent Dacron sails I was offered. It seems to be keeping its shape.

Disadvantages - apparently susceptible to mildew between the Mylar and the other layers, though I've seen no sign of this. I'm also told that when they do wear out, they lose their shape dramatically.
 
I don’t claim to be an expert but I made a bit of a study of the options before buying my new cruising laminate genoa from Kemps about three years ago. Like you I was swayed by the good shape-keeping properties of the laminate and so far it has been excellent. The boat points higher, sails faster, and heels less than with the old sail and after three seasons there is no discernable change in shape or drop in performance. I set my sail on a roller reefing gear but try not to use it reefed if I can help it. (I use a smaller headsail on windy days, but when I have used the big one reefed the shape has been fine.) I also take the sail off the reefing gear and store it below when I leave the boat. But these are both precautions that I would take to protect any expensive new sail.
As I understand it the choice of panel layout must suit the type of cloth being used. For a radial cut sail the cloth must be very stiff along its long axis (in the direction of the long threads for a woven material). Laminates suit this layout as they are very stiff in all directions. Woven cloths are actually stiffer in the direction of the short threads than in the direction of the long threads because the short threads are pulled tight in the loom and the long threads pass over and under them. This makes woven material more suitable to cross cut layouts where the heavy leach tension is taken across the panels.
Hope this helps and for what it’s worth I think you’re doing the right thing. Enjoy your new sails!
 
my 7 season Laminate is still a very good shape /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif,BUT God its very dirty, very disappointing /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif.
I am considering a new sail as I'm so embarrassed /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gifto have it on the boat. i was never told about the mildew /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 
I had laminate sails from Doyle 6yrs. ago made with Bainbridge cloth and have not been disapointed with them. The boat is used most weekends through the summer and in all sorts of weather. I have just had the genoa repaired by Doyle ( who I can highly recommend) as part of the sail had started to delaminate along the line of stitching for the sacrificial strip which creates a "hard" point on the laminate. The main is fine and now I hope to get another 6yrs. before having to replace both.

Ted
 
Hi,
I’ve been using Sobstad (now Elvstrom Sobstad) laminates for about 10-11 years on a Parker 275. The mainsail lasted 7 years, about 9,000 NM, before delaminating and eventually tearing close to the luff, but the shape was still excellent! This was a Lightwave sail, and in retrospect too light for cruising. It had a deep 3rd reef and saw some really heavy weather, I replaced with laminate with taffeta on both sides, it’s heavier and stiff but after 2 seasons shows no signs of wear.
I also have Kevlar reinforced 150% light weight Genoa, I don’t reef it, but it get furled when I use the spinnaker, 9 years old and still excellent. The best sail of the lot is the No3, which I’ve just replaced after 9 years, it started to delaminate near the clew were flogs when the boat tacks, but the sail wasn’t dead, I had it cut down into an No4, which works really well with 3 reefs in the main.
No problems with mould or fungus.
So stick with the laminates, you won’t be disappointed.
Cheers
Ian
 
Get Dacron reinforced with Spectra (hoods version is called Hydranet) lasts like dacron, keeps its shape like laminate. - but not cheap
 
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Get Dacron reinforced with Spectra (hoods version is called Hydranet) lasts like dacron, keeps its shape like laminate. - but not cheap

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Not sure if Hood ever used it but HydraNet is from Dimension Polyant and IMO is superb for performance cruising and long life. We have a triradial genoa and a triradial fully battened mainsail both made from it, the genoa has 5 seasons and the mainsail 3 and are still in excellent shape. Because it is a woven Dacron reinforced with Spectra/Dyneema in both warp and weft it is very strong as well as stretch resistant and unlike laminates doesn't suffer from mildew getting between the layers. The extra cost was well worth it on our boat because we have a powerful sailplan and the loads on a normal dacron sail would mean the sails stretched out of shape long before they wore out. Our sailmaker said that although plain Dacron would last many many years it would stretch badly and lose performance whereas laminates would hold their shape much better but would go catastrophically when they did, probably after just a few years. Hydranet seemed like an excellent compromise! On a smaller boat I was told the loads would be acceptable with a decent quality Dacron cloth and cut without the need for laminates or Hydranet.

The genoa we inherited with our current boat was a North Mylar laminate, it was still setting in a nice looking shape but after 5 seasons it was scrapped as about to fail, we were advised it 'might' last another season with some £400 spent on reinforcing the weak bits, but then again it might fail next windy day... Whilst I was having that discussion at the sailmaker's, another customer arrived carrying a laminate from a GK24 used for racing, 3 years old and NFG at all.

If you go for laminates, they don't like being folded/creased as this can cause delamination and rapid failure.

Hydra Net
 
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the material my Tri-radial Genoa is made of is Dimention Polyant DC55-UVM & DC66-UVM
i am very dissapointed after 7 seasons

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Is that a plain Dacron? If so that is what I was told would stretch out of shape on our size of boat, especially with a tallish rig/high aspect ratio sailplan. That was why the sailmaker said the options were better shape retention from a laminate (but shorter ultimate life before disintigration and a tendency to mildew) or very long life before disintegration but yet poor shape retention from a plain woven Dacron. Hydra Net was a very good compromise because it was Dacron with very strong stretch resistant threads woven in like a ' grid pattern every 5mm or so (it looks like white 'gingham' with the sun behind it). However I believe Hydra Net was only available initially with the Spectra/Dyneema in one direction only but when I bought ours they had just brought it out in a version with the Spectra/Dyneema in both warp and weft directions. Our sailmaker had previously made several suits of sails for boats on circumnavigations using the original Hydranet and was getting excellent feedback from the owners and ours so far (9,000 mls on the genoa to date with the warp/weft version) have been good too.
 
I forgot your earlier comments that it was a laminate. Actually my sailmaker said to me PLEASE don't go for the laminate option because I know how picky you are and you will be back very quickly screaming about the black mildew!

I know it is embarassing to have dirty looking sails. Our sunstrip is white, or rather was white because it is now a dirty grey even though our sails are valeted every year, the sails themseves are still crisp and white. The sunstrip is now showing signs of deteriation so we have just asked for it to be replaced this winter with a grey one, partly because all our canvas work is grey but also because it might disguise the atmospheric crap[ it picks up.
 
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