New knee new dinghy

[SteveGreene]

I am 56 and 8 weeks ago I had a total knee replacement. I have been sailing Lasers because that's what most sail at our club (Pagham, West Sussex), including my wife and father-in-law. It's a competitive household! Even though I fluctuate between 16.5 - 17 stone, I can still mix it on breezey days. I stay fit so up until now hiking has not been a problem and Laser sailing has been fun and at times fast.

So here's the thing, due to my lack of flex in my left knee (approx 110 degrees) following TKR, coupled with the lack of foot room in Lasers, unfortunately I need to find a new single hander.

I used the time off work to research many forums but still I cannot decide. Mostly because I learnt to sail in a laser 8 years ago, when I met my wife and that's pretty much all I have sailed since, so I am thin on experience.

My aim is to remain as closely matched to lasers as possible so I can still enjoy racing.

My surgeon who used to be an Olympic sailing team doctor repeatedly suggested I get a Solo. Whilst my head might agree my heart always wanted a Phantom, but I understand there is a lot of kneeling required to sail a phantom particularly downwind, which might prove too difficult. I enjoy the physical aspect of sailing so I am not sure if a Solo can provide that. Also I have considered the OK purely because the PY suggests it would be there or there abouts with the lasers.

I would be grateful for any experienced views or suggestions on the above three mentioned dinghies or even any others that could give me a chance to remain competitive and happy on the water, sailing against lasers at our club.

 

[Topcat47]

I've not sailed or raced Lasers, but I have a PKR (and a "proper yacht"). ANYTHING that involves kneeling is going to be "uncomfortable", putting it mildly. I use a Gardener's kneeling pad whenever I do any engine work on my boat and about 20 minutes is my limit, before I have to go and find something else to do. I'd advise getting something that doesn't involve grovelling under the boom every tack and gibe. I could manage a Bosun, but It's not a popular class in Chi Harbour and certainly not completive against the likes of Lasers.

 

[Easticks28]

110 degrees is not particularly unusual at 8 weeks I believe. That echos my experience of a TKR. With strick adherence to the prescribed exercise that will improve . I know it bloody hurts ! Get on with it and you will have a good result.
Dinghy sailing ? I gave that up when I got fed up with being wet and cold all the time
Get a nice comfortable keel boat in stead

 

[SteveGreene]

I've not sailed or raced Lasers, but I have a PKR (and a "proper yacht"). ANYTHING that involves kneeling is going to be "uncomfortable", putting it mildly. I use a Gardener's kneeling pad whenever I do any engine work on my boat and about 20 minutes is my limit, before I have to go and find something else to do. I'd advise getting something that doesn't involve grovelling under the boom every tack and gibe. I could manage a Bosun, but It's not a popular class in Chi Harbour and certainly not completive against the likes of Lasers.

Thanks Topcat! I'll take the advice on knee pads and maybe a proper yacht in another 5-10 years.

 

[Daydream believer]

I have a Phantom No 1143 & at 74 years of age I have decided that i am going to have to give it up. Lack of opportunity last year & bad after effect from the AZ jab has left me very weak. I doubt that I can get back on form. Pity because our clubis hosting the nationals this year & my son is class chairman.
What I can tell you that it is a fantastic boat to sail, but you need to be fit & your boat needs to be really up to date. My son did not do very well until he got a new one ( gave me the old one!!) & he won 10 cups on the trot. It is such an exciting boat that i do love sailing it. I did have a laser years ago & that is not in the same league
I really suffered in the knees, most Phantom sailors do. sailing down wind is hard work. One tends to kneel on one knee & keep the other leg up to save that knee.
So if you have knee problems it is probably not the boat to have. But then I have not seen one that is - other than a Finn which i am hoping to try soon.
We have a Sprints in the club & although one is on rather than in, I believe that the sailors say they do not have the same knee problems because they lay on it when not out, if not too tall ( like me)
You could try looking at one of those, We had an open today & it was restricted entry due to covid but I am told that there were still 25 boats

 

[johnalison]

Although I have seen some TKR knees bend to around 80 degrees, something around 90-100 seems common, and you should get a little more during the coming months. I think that you should plan your sailing so that you will not be kneeling, even with pads, though these could be useful if you find yourself in church. I am not au fait with current dinghies, and as you are clearly not ready for one of the geriatric ones yet, I think you are going to have to try them out and then go for it.

 

[TernVI]

Phantom is 10% faster than a Laser on PY, so you will either be out of touch with them on the water, or last on handicap, or both.
17 stone is a big restriction, Phantom and Finn spring to mind.

Have a look at the Hadron dinghy. Like the Solo, there is a centre seat which cuts out much of the kneeling.
Specs and Technical | Hadron Dinghies Ltd

 

[Caraway]

A Solo will give you plenty of exercise ....... and swimming practice.

Just me then?

(You call that a seat? Not if you have a skinny arse. It's a knife edge.)

 

[SteveGreene]

Thanks. I like swimming too.

 

[SteveGreene]

I have a Phantom No 1143 & at 74 years of age I have decided that i am going to have to give it up. Lack of opportunity last year & bad after effect from the AZ jab has left me very weak. I doubt that I can get back on form. Pity because our clubis hosting the nationals this year & my son is class chairman.
What I can tell you that it is a fantastic boat to sail, but you need to be fit & your boat needs to be really up to date. My son did not do very well until he got a new one ( gave me the old one!!) & he won 10 cups on the trot. It is such an exciting boat that i do love sailing it. I did have a laser years ago & that is not in the same league
I really suffered in the knees, most Phantom sailors do. sailing down wind is hard work. One tends to kneel on one knee & keep the other leg up to save that knee.
So if you have knee problems it is probably not the boat to have. But then I have not seen one that is - other than a Finn which i am hoping to try soon.
We have a Sprints in the club & although one is on rather than in, I believe that the sailors say they do not have the same knee problems because they lay on it when not out, if not too tall ( like me)
You could try looking at one of those, We had an open today & it was restricted entry due to covid but I am told that there were still 25 boats

I have a Phantom No 1143 & at 74 years of age I have decided that i am going to have to give it up. Lack of opportunity last year & bad after effect from the AZ jab has left me very weak. I doubt that I can get back on form. Pity because our clubis hosting the nationals this year & my son is class chairman.
What I can tell you that it is a fantastic boat to sail, but you need to be fit & your boat needs to be really up to date. My son did not do very well until he got a new one ( gave me the old one!!) & he won 10 cups on the trot. It is such an exciting boat that i do love sailing it. I did have a laser years ago & that is not in the same league
I really suffered in the knees, most Phantom sailors do. sailing down wind is hard work. One tends to kneel on one knee & keep the other leg up to save that knee.
So if you have knee problems it is probably not the boat to have. But then I have not seen one that is - other than a Finn which i am hoping to try soon.
We have a Sprints in the club & although one is on rather than in, I believe that the sailors say they do not have the same knee problems because they lay on it when not out, if not too tall ( like me)
You could try looking at one of those, We had an open today & it was restricted entry due to covid but I am told that there were still 25 boats

Thanks for this. I think you have confirmed my fears. It will be sad not to sail a phantom as I'd liked but at least one less to look at. Hope you recover your form.

 

[eddystone]

Thing about a Solo is that they have rig options for different weights but I eventually got fed up with it. The boom is very low and they are a pain to right after a capsize.
Have you thought about a Solution - bit like a scaled down Phantom although you need to kneel downwind. Kneeling can be avoided in a K1 which are growing in numbers.

 

[Greenheart]

17 stone is a big restriction.

It's a restriction I'd be glad to endure. Being a heavyweight is far more liberating than being on the light side for dinghy sailing on the sea, even in the Laser class. I know there are super-fit relatively lightweight Laser champions, but how many sail from Selsey?

A decade-old article by Steve Cockerill, with interesting points: How Heavy to be a Radial Sailor? - Rooster blog

Lightness is fabulous in light winds, but being continuously overpowered upwind on the majority of sailing days per summer, makes me launch less often because it's such a work-out. I could just get a light person's boat, but I don't like them much. ?

Kneeling can be avoided in a K1 which are growing in numbers.

I know three chaps who sail K1s. If I wasn't so attached to the Osprey, I might have found funds to get a K1, they look terrific and really reward skill rather than mere youthful energy and powers of recovery. PY1064, compared with the Laser's 1100(ish).

The only detraction is that before paying £5,000+ to eliminate capsize, I'd also consider other designs, which have cabins.

 

[eddystone]

We got a K1 mostly upgraded to latest spec for £3K

 

[Daydream believer]

The only detraction is that before paying £5,000+ to eliminate capsize, I'd also consider other designs, which have cabins.

Dan. You have been on about a cruiser for YEARS . When are you going to FINALLY go & get one.

 

[SteveGreene]

The K1 looks very nice but we launch from a beach, and I couldn't see that being always too easy with a keel.

 

[TernVI]

It's a restriction I'd be glad to endure. Being a heavyweight is far more liberating than being on the light side for dinghy sailing on the sea, even in the Laser class. I know there are super-fit relatively lightweight Laser champions, but how many sail from Selsey?

...

You need to be the right weight to compete at a high level.
You need to be very fit with it.
Squad level laser sailing includes a lot of time at windy venues.
At club level, being light is often an advantage as there are more races sailed in lighter winds.
Being over 15 stone is rarely good in club singlehander racing.
Many singlehanders are short on the waterline and don't carry the weight well, it's hard to get your weight forward enough to keep the transom out of the water in light airs.

Supernova might be another boat to look at.
But personally, I've sailed a fair few dinghies and of the singlehanders, I'd say the Laser is one of the least demanding in terms of mobility.
All are demanding on the knees, perhaps the least might be those without a double self draining floor like Solo, Finn, Hadron or a very old Phantom.
Or for something different, RS Vareo. Not my cup of tea but the people who had them at my old club always seemed to enjoy themselves.

 

[Greenheart]

At club level, being light is often an advantage as there are more races sailed in lighter winds.

Hmm...perhaps it makes a difference where the club is? Whenever I'm free, it is rarely forecast to blow windspeeds in single figures in the central Solent, and routinely gusts on the high side of F4. I wasn't supposing Pagham would be much different.

Interesting to read in the Steve Cockerill blog I linked earlier, that in waves (i.e. at sea) he was forced to depower the Laser's standard rig earlier than crews who were heavier than him (78kg), and that he lost ground to them until the wind blew so hard that they had to depower in the same way.

But I can see how the Laser's hull shape and size doesn't reward either extreme of helm weight.

Is it possible that a trapeze boat would be easier on the knees?

The K1 looks very nice but we launch from a beach, and I couldn't see that being always too easy with a keel.

That does look problematic. Loose gravel/steep beaches are a challenge for heavy boats on standard trolley-wheels...that may put other heavy designs like the Finn out of contention. I've been thinking about using those huge catamaran trolley wheels instead.

Not necessarily relevant here, but the K1 keel retracts far enough for the boat to be recovered pretty much like any dinghy...

...and these gents aren't exactly Ainslie's doubles. I helped pull a K1 out the other day, and despite its 60kg ballast keel, it felt (and it is) lighter than the Osprey, which I haul out alone. And I'm an overeating desk-jockey who never went anywhere near a gymnasium.

Dan. You have been on about a cruiser for YEARS . When are you going to FINALLY go & get one.

Thanks DB, I had a 24-footer for the last couple of years. Didn't you wonder why I was always asking about outboards? ?
One of the worst things about ownership, was feeling that I wasn't free to dream about buying a boat.

 

[Caraway]

One of the worst things about ownership, was feeling that I wasn't free to dream about buying a boat.

 

[TernVI]

78kg is 12st 2lb.
A long way from the OP.
I think anything much over 14st or 90kg is just luggage in a Laser.
Even being 13 1/2 stone isn't fast unless you can get your weight well out, keep the boat flat and stay like that for the whole beat.
Steve Cockerill will hammer most club sailors, he is talking about small differences relative to the international elite.
As well as being light, he ain't very tall so he can't get the weight far enough out. In a Laser, the toestraps are in the middle of the boat regardless of your height.
Steve has won windy races in the Rooster 8.1, his extra large laser rig :
""Update from Steve, February 2009: At the Nationals Last year on the windy second day I decided to use as much Cunningham as I could put on. I used the old style both legs pull with straight arms. I figured that either the sail would break – or I would be able to sail fast against Greg Carey who is a big unit. It worked!! No I mean I was very very competitive. The mast bent on its own – a bit like a windsurfer rig – and I sailed to windward with no kicker – but with the sail block to block. It was so easy! I beat Greg to the first mark and the rest is history. ""

But some sailors who aren't very fit, are not the ideal size or shape for their boat etc, still do very well at club level because they start well, have good knowledge of the local conditions and good tactical skills.

 

[SteveGreene]

Yep the Laser will be consigned to history. Its been fun. Though despite the pain from the daily knee exercises, I am actually in a great position, and excited with the prospect about having something completely new. I am going to spend this summer trying out my options and I really can't wait to get back on the water.

Your suggestions and experience is exactly what I have been seeking. It helps eliminate those that are just not going to be practical for a new knee.

I have been researching your suggestions that I hadn't previously considered and I will definitely look alot more closely at the Hadron H2, Perhaps the K1 with bigger tyres on the launching trolley and Sprint 15. The sprint also has potential to eliminate the competition from home as I could enlist my wife as crew. Ha if she will accept being crew of course!
I had already booked a trial on a Phantom so I'll probably keep that just so as I know what I might be missing.