Debenair
Active member
+1 for DB,s comment. Horrendous sag on the forestay. You can tension the rig much tighter than most cruising folk think appropriate. Lots of threads on YBW or see the Selden advice online.
New furling head sail creases
- Thread starter KAM
- Start date
BarryH
Active member
I used a steamer to get the creases out of mine. I had the same problem, I solved it moving the car aft when I furled it.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
How did the resin in the sail react to the heat of the steamer? i think that it is something that I would be a bit worried about trying!!!!!
Not that I do the ironing at home anyway :ambivalence:
BarryH
Active member
The sail wasn't new. It appears to have survived with no I'll effect. I had it laundered and a new sacrificial strip fitted. The sail makers checked it and said it didn't need replacing.
I used a normal wallpaper stripper. Didn't iron it busts played the steam over the crease and pulled it taught with the sheets.
I used a normal wallpaper stripper. Didn't iron it busts played the steam over the crease and pulled it taught with the sheets.
KAM
Well-known member
I'm beginning to think the foam luff is the wrong geometry. It looks quite different to the examples which come up on google. Too much bulk in the centre and not enough near the tack resulting in excess cloth near the tack once it starts to furl. Any comments appreciated.
Last edited:
Martin_J
Well-known member
Are you sure you turned the tack ring the correct way before attaching the tack of the sail to it and hoisting?
The furling of the tack of the sail is supposed to be delayed by one revolution in relation to the luff extrusion (when the ring has been pre-turned). It doesn't look like it has. It looks like the sail tack has been pulled around the luff extrusion on the very first turn...
It's late but that's what I'm thinking. Also thinking it's a nice looking sail.
BelleSerene
Active member
Those creases show the sheet is too far aft - the sail’s being pulled upwards - as it’s being furled.
Pull the Genoa sheet car forward and then furl the sail.
Pull the Genoa sheet car forward and then furl the sail.
BabaYaga
Well-known member
This is what I think as well, from looking at the photos.
Also, it seems that the protective strip is unnecessarily wide, which could contribute to bulk near the tack when the sail is furled. The problem is, in my view, the 'skinny' bit between the reinforcements and the beginning of the foam luff.
It looks as if the sail has a bi-radial cut? If correct, I think that cut is more vulnerable to this problem. I used to have such a sail and experienced the same as you do. (Though in my case there is also the 'torque tube' of the Harken gear, which makes things worse).
KAM
Well-known member
A couple of people have suggested the genoa car is in the wrong position when reefing. I would be interested to hear about your reefing technique. As far as I can see its just about impossible to have any control of the direction of the genoa sheet when reefing in a strong wind.
Last edited:
KAM
Well-known member
That's the first thing I suspected. Iv'e checked it a couple of times. Its definitely right now but its possible it may have been wrong initially and caused a big initial crease. Ill check again when I launch.
Sandy
Well-known member
What material is the sail made of and why were they made to do?
I ask because I'm having new sails made this winter and when I described my requirements that gave the sail maker a whole set of parameters to make to sail to, including a wider UV strip.
I ask because I'm having new sails made this winter and when I described my requirements that gave the sail maker a whole set of parameters to make to sail to, including a wider UV strip.
KAM
Well-known member
This is what I think as well, from looking at the photos.
Also, it seems that the protective strip is unnecessarily wide, which could contribute to bulk near the tack when the sail is furled. The problem is, in my view, the 'skinny' bit between the reinforcements and the beginning of the foam luff.
It looks as if the sail has a bi-radial cut? If correct, I think that cut is more vulnerable to this problem. I used to have such a sail and experienced the same as you do. (Though in my case there is also the 'torque tube' of the Harken gear, which makes things worse).
Thanks for the picture it's very helpful. Yes it's a bi radial the same as my previous sail which although worn out furled exceptionally well. I hadn't thought about the UV strip it does look a bit wide and is definitely exacerbating the problem. I'll have a trawl through my photos and see if I have a picture of the old sail and its luff foam. Its a pity the sail is off the boat at the moment as it would have been a simple matter to temporarily lengthen the foam luff. I hadn't expected the sail maker to get the foam wrong. I have a copy of the design file but the foam dimensions are not shown. I suppose its possible they have made a mistake with the vertical positioning. I'll keep an open mind until I finish checking. Any other suggestions very welcome.
KAM
Well-known member
KAM
Well-known member
BelleSerene
Active member
From your pic, the foot of the genoa is bar tight and being pulled upwards relative to a 90 degree angle from the forestay. That's why the sail is creasing upwards from the tack.
The very thin furl around the forestay also shows the considerable force it must have taken you to reef it!
I have the same problem.
1 If in trouble, always turn downwind and ease the sheet before reefing the sail. It's unimaginably easier this way. Yes, you'd think the sail would reef nicely just flapping in the breeze because the sheet is loose. But the forces on it seem to be counter-intuitive.
2 Before reefing, pull the genoa car forwards if you can. As the sail furls, its upper exposed point comes downwards more than its lower exposed point goes up, because of the acute angle at the head of the sail. So that 90 degree angle from the midpoint of the luff hits your deck further forwards. (I'm sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs here.) So the genoa car wants to be moved forwards - both to sail efficiently and to avoid this creasing problem as you furl the sail.
3 As for controlling the car in a strong wind (as opposed to reefing in a strong wind which (1) above solves), I also sympathise. You can't move the car when there's any significant force on it. Personally I cheated and designed a mechanism to substitute for a roller-bearing genoa car (which I couldn't afford), inspired by the great Snooks of this parish. There's a thread about it elsewhere (I'll look it up if you want ) and my own setup is below. It uses dyneema, low-friction rings and a cam cleat to give me a 6:1 or 8:1 (less friction coefficient) purchase on the genoa sheet, accessible from the cockpit coaming.
That's Fred Drift here. (1) above should fix your problem.
KAM
Well-known member
Thanks for the advice. Not sure I can get my head round turning down wind to furl the headsail. There are so many circumstances where you would not want to do that. Tracking through a narrow channel, approaching an anchorage or mooring or pulling in a quick reef during a tack. I think I want to correct my equipment so it works for me. I am going to concentrate on reshaping the foam luff, check rigging tension and free turn. I was also maybe going to extend the luff tape so the sail is retained in the foil further down towards the tack. Anyone know the reason for having a large gap between the tack and the attachment point to the luff groove on the foil.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
If the foil starts too close to the tack it makes it a little harder to feed the sail in from the bag when doing sail changes..If the furler groove went very low it would make that point fatter & make the rolls correspondingly bigger
Your bunching of the sail at the foot could have been avoided if the clew of the sail had been cut higher. You have a fairly low cut clew so the foot rolls onto the furler at one spot causing bunching. The sailmaker should know this & allowed for it.
By having a higher clew the foot gradually moves up the furler & ,therefore, does not bunch so much. It also has the advantage that you can see under the sail easier. Of course you loose a little in area but once you start furling that is irrelevant as you would be loosing area anyway.
Last edited:
BelleSerene
Active member
I guess no-one's mentioned the obvious first step of reducing furler friction: hot water over your furling drum; feeding the furling line at right angles out of the fuller and at right angles through a bearing on the pulpit; reducing line diameter.
Re turning downwind to furl the headsail, the great Tom Cunliffe writes rock-solid stuff on the topic here http://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/practical/tom-cunliffe-downwind-sailing/
Others write on it here: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship-navigation/48806-technique-furling-high-winds.html
Good luck!
Re turning downwind to furl the headsail, the great Tom Cunliffe writes rock-solid stuff on the topic here http://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/practical/tom-cunliffe-downwind-sailing/
Others write on it here: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship-navigation/48806-technique-furling-high-winds.html
Good luck!
KAM
Well-known member
On my old plastimo furler the sail fed into the groove about a metre above the deck but then the tack was fed back down through the same feeder so that the whole length of the luff was held in the foil groove. Is it possible to modify the Selden foil to work in the same way.
BelleSerene
Active member
I should have mentioned:
- your pics seem to show a lot of forestay sag, and I don't think that's just distortion from the wide-angle camera lens. A forestay that's not straight will increase the power of your sail, making it harder to furl - and also harder to sail close-hauled without heeling or broaching!
- assuming that you crank up the halyard tension in a blow, if you then furl the sail back up without easing that tension, it's putting a lot of strain on the rollers at both head and tack, increasing the friction that's resisting you furling the sail. The sail should not be left furled with all its halyard tension in it.