New fixed DSC VHF advice please.

[john_morris_uk]

I’ve done some research and I’ve got some ideas but I’m getting myself a little tied up in knots and confused so I’d be grateful for some considered opinions. I want to change our current 18 year one fixed DSC VHF to one that is capable of having a command microphone in the cockpit. My first impulse was to go to Icom. However the radios that have command microphones have pushbutton volume controls up and down and push button with another button for squelch. I think for crew this is not always intuitive and having a rotary control that you turn the volume up and down with covers more naturally to people. I see that Standard Horizon do a radio that has rotary controls (Standard Horizon GX1850GPS/E Fixed DSC VHF With GPS & NMEA 2000 ) but I’m confused over all the options that seems to come with.
Do I ignore it’s NMEA capability and not connect it to my Raymarine gear (why would I want to?)
I assume I can ignore the features:

• GPS Compass, Waypoint and GPS status pages
• Enter, Save, and Navigate to a waypoint using the Compass page
• Navigation (LAT/LON, SOG, and COG) information shown on display
• GM (Group Monitor) Using DSC Group position Calling
• MOB (Man over Board) Operation
• 
  I don’t need to duplicate things that are already done on the MFD.etc.
• 
  edited some typos but can’t stop the bullet points!

 

[R.Ems]

I totally agree with the assumptions about features to ignore. Other useless features are automatic fog signals which can only be used instead of, (not as well as,) the actual radio (whose bright idea was that?) and a deck loudhailer on a cruising yacht is no more than a gimmick.

DSC needs a lat/long as you know I'm sure, and my SH 2000 fixed set needs a supply of NMEA position data, which is the only reason I am forced to keep a plotter on and connected all the time. So a built-in GPS would be a great idea, as long as you get a cast-iron declaration it will work through your decks..
Rotary knobs are essential, for channels, squelch and volume.
I know little about command mikes, seems like a great idea, but they are pricey...and will get stomped on at some point!

I think an internal GPS for DSC VHF's should be normal these days, then it is a standalone safety resource.

 

[Tranona]

I bought the simpler 1400 model because I don't have N2K, don't need a second station or a mic. From what I see the advantage of putting the VHF onto your N2K network is that you can call using DSC from your MFD. Never been a big user if the radio and have always found the combination of a DSC for the emergency bit and calls when offshore plus a handheld for short range - marinas etc perfectly adequate.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I bought the simpler 1400 model because I don't have N2K, don't need a second station or a mic. From what I see the advantage of putting the VHF onto your N2K network is that you can call using DSC from your MFD. Never been a big user if the radio and have always found the combination of a DSC for the emergency bit and calls when offshore plus a handheld for short range - marinas etc perfectly adequate.

That’s been our practice too. Handheld in the cockpit as we’re approaching a marina and I don’t use the vhf in collision avoidance except in the most exceptional circumstances. (Once in the last twenty years when our motor sailing cone was totally obscured by our genoa ).
It would be nice to be able to cancel DSC alerts from the cockpit etc so the command mic feature is attractive. As it is the alarm sounds down below and wakes the off watch crews while who ever is on watch unclips and heads for the chart table to hit the cancel/accept DSC button on the VHF.
PS The French are worst for using DSC alarms for routine traffic.

 

[Uricanejack]

I can’t say I know much about electronics, if I need something sorted or set up I tend to call a tech, If you can find one.
User friendly, is not a common feature. All lot of the designers and sales people are very familiar with electronics.
As items get more modern my opinion they tend to be less user friendly. Or perhaps it’s just I’m an old dog having trouble with new tricks. or a Grumpy Old Luddite Git.

Check the procedure to change from International to US mode particularly if you are planning a voyage across the pond.
You want this to be simple and intuitive. Like a button. I like knobs and button. Unfortunately manufacturers seam to like menues. both USCG an CG use a lot of US VHF channels the ability to change mode quickly and easily is handy.
Three steps of menu not so good for old guy who never could program a VCR especially now I need reading glasses.

Personal opinion, having it integrated with GPS, AIS ect is a good thing, even when you don’t use it very much.
I never make DSC calls and I don’t like answering them. Exception once a month for a test and to enter in log for audit.
It is nice to have JIK if you ever do need. The ability to click on a AIS No and make a call might just come in handy. Can’t say I often feel the need. But occasionally it might make sense.

In my opinion ,Using these functions on the radio is generally a fiddle and a PIA, using these functions through a MDF is generally much more user friendly. So is it worthwhile to be integrated with MDF even if it is double ing features? Yes, and redundancies are not bad things. Particularly if you need a tech to fix it.

Do you have a separate AIS.

Again personal opinion, I looked at a DSC radio at boat show not to long ago pre Covid, nice price, inbuilt AIS but receive only, which in my case made the decision for me, not to proceed.

To my mind the real value of AIS is in the being seen. And correctly identified. Which conflicts with my paranoid views on privacy and Big Brother. Particularly living within reception range of multitudes of US Federal agencies.
on occasion I have found this to be very helpful.
As a general policy, I’d agree with the MCA advise against using VHF. Despite this on occasion it does make sense. If you can positively identify the other vessel.

At the time the vendor didn’t have an option which included the transponder. I decide to wait. Or by separate independent AIS which is full receiver transponder and get a cheeper DSC. As yet it’s not high enough up my priority list for my budget.
Again personal opinion, I didnt find AIS to be particularly user friendly until it’s on a visual display. I find the visual display very helpful. And I believe AIS triangle has significant value for small vessels.
Anything which improves your visibility is a good thing. kind of like wearing hi vis on my MC. I don’t have, to but why not.
list on the little screen impossible to see without glasses and about as useful as teats on a bull.

I’ve never used a DSC which wasn’t integrated with GPS, so I don’t even know if they are available without it. The primary reason to have this function is for when you break the glass and press the big red button. The auto call gives your position.
Ive never had a reason to use this function, hopefully I never will.
I have received and responded to this function. The red button is the primary reason to have a DSC. The rest of it is just annoying.
In my opinion probably the most Important feature to look at when selecting a DSC radio.
How easy is it to update the voyage information.
particularly
How many persons on board.
If it’s not easy and user friendly to update it will get forgotten.

This is often most easily done through an MFD.

I’m kind of grumpy old git. When sailing my radio is irritating. I prefer peace and quite of nature without its interruption. Common sense dictates I have one, JIK,

Practicality, I often have two, I’ve never liked the dual watch feature. For dual watch I like to use two separate radios. One on 16 and one on Local VTS. I like to listen in on VTS when in area where interacting with commercial traffic is common particularly when it’s in confined waters. With 16 at low volume in the back ground JIK. I like the insight I get from the traffic channel.
I never find I need to add my two cents when sailing. But it’s nice to know who’s arround and what they are up to. Fore warned is fore armed.

So if you do get a DSC radio I’d recommend keeping the old one. It’s probably better than my hand held No 2 radio.

 

[Poecheng]

Our new-to-us boat came with the one that JM is considering: SH1850 and the RAM4 SSM70h command mike in the cockpit.
I find it excellent, particularly the second station mike from where you can also turn the whole thing on and off but which has all the data/functions on its little screen that the main set has.
At one point on our delivery trip at Easter, we had cause to speak to the CG for quite a while at the end of which they asked for our MMSI - I remembered it was there displayed on the command mike screen so that was easy!

 

[dunedin]

Personally I wouldn't get too hung up over knobs vs buttons, whether for volume or channels etc. Recently swapped mobile vhf and new one button only. No issue, indeed buttons slightly better as has been less prone to being switched on accidentally.
I suspect after a couple of days use you would wonder why you made it an issue.
Do you still have a rotating dial on your phone ;-)

 

[Keith-i]

I’m not sure if the Garmin VHF 200 has a command mic but I have their unit on my boat and it is quite straightforward and simple to operate. It also has knobs for the important functions. Connection to the chart plotter is useful as you can see the position of a vessel that’s called on your chart.

 

[cpedw]

The Icom M423GE has rotary volume, squelch and channel - all on the same rotary knob! You press it once, twice or thrice (4 times for display brightness I think).
I just chose the SH 1800GPS, same as the 1850 but without AIS. The main reason to go for it was the lack of supply of Icom.

 

[laika]

Some thoughts:
* The icom 510E seems to have some knobs, but per dunedin's post I don't think buttons are a big deal: a friend's radio has them and I cope (I do prefer the rotary knob though) and command mic will be buttons anyway
* "Navigation (LAT/LON, SOG, and COG) information shown on display" is actually handy (well, lat/long anyway) but (a) they all do that and (b) maybe I have a special case: autohelm tridata which shows log/depth/wind at the chart table but no other means of GPS display for log entries
* Command mics are brilliant if you're short handed. I've never used mine for collision avoidance but use it regularly for cancelling DSC alerts and calling harbours/marinas. If the SH command mic is anything like the icom one I have, while you can do a lot with them, it's impossible to remember the key sequences for anything complicated (dual watch etc) and dsc calls to anything not in your phone book are awkward so I only use it like a handheld.
* I've not had an issue with treading on my command mic. It sits on a little bracket at the back of the cockpit (ie behind the helm)
* You won't (currently) get an SH or ICOM radio to make a call to an AIS target from a raymarine plotter. It's not standardised. That's a shame as it's potentially a great feature
* Having DSC alerts plotted on a plotter via NMEA connectivity is potentially useful so I would strive for plotter connectivity. Given the very low level of DSC awareness (see multiple other threads on this) forget being able to send a position request to your friends: I'm yet to have any of my friends respond to one.
* If the radio has NMEA-0183 only I'd consider whether the next plotter you buy is going to have spare -0183 ports and if you really want to run another pair of wires up to the plotter (I'm no a huge N2K fan but it would seem to make more sense now than -0183)
* GPS integrated would seem a no-brainer rather than risk losing connectivity to an external one. (assuming you can use an external backup if the internal one breaks? Haven't researched this on modern radios...)
* I got an icom with number buttons (601? 602?) which is indeed easier to punch in mmsis on, but given how infrequently most people do that I'd say it's not worth considering splashing out for the modern all-singing-all-ais-receiving 605

 

[Roberto]

I have an integrated vhf/ais receiver and would not be without the ais side (I have a separate ais txr too): on long passages I just keep the radio on watch and switch off plotters and friends which are useless most of the time (except if one likes to see his own ship icon in the middle of a white display); the radio Cpa alarm is very loud and the tiny ais display often enough to have an idea about what is going on, should there be need for more detail one can switch on the plotter; in case of need, the radio allows an immediate dsc call with the ship mmsi. I find they are all nice features, even better with the remote mic. ?

 

[Poecheng]

I forgot to mention that the CG wanted our position as well and I was able to read that from the mike in the cockpit.

 

[johnalison]

I look forward to following this thread as I am in the same position. My 22 Yr old Skanti has been excellent but although it still works it is falling to bits physically, which is disappointing. I am less concerned about rotary controls, since we have been used to buttons on the Skanti and I never found them to be a problem and my wife also has not trouble with it. I am more concerned about how the DSC functions. On my radio, when a call is received, all I have to do is pick up the handset and an acknowledgement is sent automatically and the channel selected. At the time we bought ours the few alternative sets required the operator to press the ‘acknowledge’ button, and in at least one case press a ‘confirm’ button at every channel change, leading at least one person I know to attempt to call a marina on ch 16 inadvertently.

 

[Sandy]

I fitted a RAM to my SH VHF set 18 months ago. I normally single or short hand sail. Not needing to leave the cockpit to answer/cancel the VHF has reduced a lot of the stress from my sailing. Hearing the MSI broadcast on a long coastal passage is useful.

The SH RAM has buttons rather than knobs and fits neatly on the instrument pod.

 

[Roberto]

. On my radio, when a call is received, all I have to do is pick up the handset and an acknowledgement is sent automatically and the channel selected. .

Pedantly, on a class D vhf (like leisure radios) sending/transmitting acknowledgements is inhibited, as it has a lot of operational and legal consequences; these radios "ackowledgement" is basically to silence the alarm and sometimes shift the receiver to the operational channel, nothing is being sent or transmitted.
My SH works similarly to yours, a press of the PTT button and the alarm is stopped; hopefully one remembers to have a look at the kind of alert it has been received, in Spain there are dsc alerts for every weather forecasts...

 

[johnalison]

Pedantly, on a class D vhf (like leisure radios) sending/transmitting acknowledgements is inhibited, as it has a lot of operational and legal consequences; these radios "ackowledgement" is basically to silence the alarm and sometimes shift the receiver to the operational channel, nothing is being sent or transmitted.
My SH works similarly to yours, a press of the PTT button and the alarm is stopped; hopefully one remembers to have a look at the kind of alert it has been received, in Spain there are dsc alerts for every weather forecasts...

Unwanted alerts are a separate problem, but a cause for some concern. Occasionally, the sheer number of often distant securite alarms leads one to want to turn the radio off, and must have contributed to a general reluctance to adopt the system. I don’t know how the acknowledgement system works - I just use the set according to the instructions. The sets from mine’s generation all had some means of ‘acknowledging’ a call but I haven’t taken any particular interest in it so long as it works for me.

 

[Elessar]

That’s been our practice too. Handheld in the cockpit as we’re approaching a marina and I don’t use the vhf in collision avoidance except in the most exceptional circumstances. (Once in the last twenty years when our motor sailing cone was totally obscured by our genoa ).
It would be nice to be able to cancel DSC alerts from the cockpit etc so the command mic feature is attractive. As it is the alarm sounds down below and wakes the off watch crews while who ever is on watch unclips and heads for the chart table to hit the cancel/accept DSC button on the VHF.
PS The French are worst for using DSC alarms for routine traffic.

With AIS, using VHF for collision avoidance with ships is useful. I know it’s against the rules but the rules need a revamp. When both vessels can be positively identified it is particularly useful to declare your intention to stand on (or otherwise) as most yachts don’t follow the colregs, and don’t stand on, leaving ships guessing.
Pre AIS declaring that the yacht with white sails intended to do anything on VHF was obviously flawed.
I have the raymarine black box vhf so you effectively have two command mics. Like every vhf I’ve ever found with buttons only it is unintuitive. Not very helpful, but you can pull from it that it isn’t worth the high price of the raymarine product.

 

[R.Ems]

With AIS, using VHF for collision avoidance with ships is useful. I know it’s against the rules but the rules need a revamp. When both vessels can be positively identified it is particularly useful to declare your intention to stand on (or otherwise) as most yachts don’t follow the colregs, and don’t stand on, leaving ships guessing.
Pre AIS declaring that the yacht with white sails intended to do anything on VHF was obviously flawed.
I have the raymarine black box vhf so you effectively have two command mics. Like every vhf I’ve ever found with buttons only it is unintuitive. Not very helpful, but you can pull from it that it isn’t worth the high price of the raymarine product.

Hmmm., you say 'most yachts don't follow the colregs..' but do you think these illiterate luddites ought to start fiddling with tricky digital gadgets to avoid their collisions, how will that work?

There is zero obligation to fit or use AIS on yachts, nor will there be anytime soon.

Neither VHF or AIS are recommended by the MCA for collision avoidance.

 

[Elessar]

Hmmm., you say 'most yachts don't follow the colregs..' but do you think these illiterate luddites ought to start fiddling with tricky digital gadgets to avoid their collisions, how will that work?

There is zero obligation to fit or use AIS on yachts, nor will there be anytime soon.

Neither VHF or AIS are recommended by the MCA for collision avoidance.

View attachment 137886View attachment 137886

Quoting the rules is pointless. I know they are not recommended. I said that in my post.

I also said most yachts don’t follow the colregs. I believe that is true - they invent a rule called “night is right” when it comes to ships and don’t stand on.

AIS removes ambiguity and therefore makes the use of VHF for collision avoidance useful. It is routine practice by commercial vessels and I use it too. The rules need to catch up with modern reality.

 

[dgadee]

I got rid of the SH cockpit extension. Wind meant no one could hear what I was saying. Now have SH with gps and AIS receive. Handheld for harbour use. Happy with setup.