New engines could be a problem

[JumbleDuck]

Engineers know the parameters required to design a new generation of marine diesel engines. Competition and brand success will ensure that these engines will be better than the current ones.

Absolutely. The idea that the current generation of marine diesels represent an unsurpassed peak of engineering design is just daft.

Well even using your figures and using a moderately fast (not rapid charger at 20kw) Nissan Leaf charger at 6.6kw x by 4.6m cars = 27,600,000,000 watts per night with them all plugged in - of course diversity factors but a hell of a lot more than 11twh per year

A Nissan Leaf has a range, as I recall, of 100 miles, so even if they all did the national average mileage of ~10,000 per year they would only need charged every third or fourth night. But yes, the UK's electricity infrastructure barely copes with demand at the moment, and for it to replace petroleum-derived road fuels would/will need a massive increase in capacity, which in turn means a lot more nukes.

In 2-16, road transport energy use in the UK was 41,450 ktoe (thousand tons of oil equivalent)[1], almost all of which will have been petrol and diesel. Total electrical power delivered across all sectors was about 20,000 ktoe. Electric vehicles are a lot more efficient (not counting generation) than internal combustion ones, but even allowing a factor of four there, which is generous, would mean a 50% increase in electricity demand.


[1] https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/633503/ECUK_2017.pdf

 

[knuterikt]

As an aside, modern engines need a good source of 12v and store engine settings in sleep mode even when engine off. The ecu has to relearn engine parameters if ever switched off. Car runs like a bag of nails for a hundred miles. Just saying its the small things that trip you up.

Strange then that Yanmar installation instructions for my new common rail engine ask for a switch on the ECU power supply. It's turned off when boat is not in use, it's a two pole switch for ECE and starter.

 

[Cheesey69]

That's what I mean about how complicated things can get. The Euro v spec engines we fit are constantly looking at their pollution level, fuel trim and remembering settings. Switching of the power is classed as a soft reset and I can't see how the powers that be can implement that standard on a marine engine. So with a bit of luck, they will leave us alone. What they do with land based plant engines is another matter bearing in mind these engines is our base supply.

 

[Cactus Sailing]

even allowing a factor of four there, which is generous, would mean a 50% increase in electricity demand.


[1] https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/633503/ECUK_2017.pdf

Exactly and Hinckley point is going to increase our electrical capacity by 7% so we need ~6-7 more Hinckley points where are they going to put them, and considering Hinckley point started negotiations in 2005 and will be built by 2025 at 20years per plant we be better get a move on for 2040

 

[BabaYaga]

In 2-16, road transport energy use in the UK was 41,450 ktoe (thousand tons of oil equivalent)[1], almost all of which will have been petrol and diesel. Total electrical power delivered across all sectors was about 20,000 ktoe. Electric vehicles are a lot more efficient (not counting generation) than internal combustion ones, but even allowing a factor of four there, which is generous, would mean a 50% increase in electricity demand.

Since this thread drift is about cars, the right figure to use for comparison would be energy use for passenger transport by road, circa 27 000 ktoe.
Some further quick googling suggest that there are some 32 million cars in the UK, each driving on average 7 900 miles/12 700 km per year. If by magic all of those cars turned electrical over night, consuming 0.2 kWh per km driven, the demand increase of electrical energy could be calculated to around 80 TWh.
To be compared to your figure of total electrical power of 20 000 ktoe delivered today, which converts to 240 TWh. However, elsewhere I find other figures for annual electrical power use in the UK, around 380 TWh.
Don't know which is correct, but either way nothing suggests that electrical cars would increase electricity demand by 100 or even 50 percent.

 

[RAI]

Engineers know the parameters required to design a new generation of marine diesel engines. Competition and brand success will ensure that these engines will be better than the current ones.
One thing about the new common rail engine is that it will be more powerful and fuel efficient a current Yanmar 30 of 1.26L will produce similar power output for possibly less than 1 litre capacity. Smaller engine requiring less space, lighter engine more miles per litre same power, it’s a no brainer.

I had a look at the cost of replacing my Yanmar 4JH4E. There are still a few 4JH5E's available in Europe, but the same basic 2.19 litre engine is now being offer with CR technology in two power settings 40 and 57 hp - called 4JH40 and 4JH57. I presume the ECU is programmed more for emissions reduction and maybe fuel economy rather than more power from the same 2.19 litres.

 

[Tranona]

Engineers know the parameters required to design a new generation of marine diesel engines. Competition and brand success will ensure that these engines will be better than the current ones.
One thing about the new common rail engine is that it will be more powerful and fuel efficient a current Yanmar 30 of 1.26L will produce similar power output for possibly less than 1 litre capacity. Smaller engine requiring less space, lighter engine more miles per litre same power, it’s a no brainer.

Most of the 30hp engines are 1L or even less. The typical specific outputs on small engines are between 30-35hp per litre and are naturally aspirated. This could be easily increased without major changes - for example a Kubota 14hp is 35 hp/L so my 1L Volvo 30 hp could easily go to 35hp.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Don't know which is correct, but either way nothing suggests that electrical cars would increase electricity demand by 100 or even 50 percent.

You are quite correct that cars only account for a bit of the petroleum fuel used, but goods vehicles will have to change too, in due course. Will manufacturers sell diesel-fuelled car-derived vans when the cars themselves are electric?

 

[Heckler]

One of the msin differences are injector sizes. Imagine a ball point pen refill and a human hair. Older diesel injectors are like refills injected at fairly low pressure. New injectors are like hair injected at very high pressure

I started refurbing injectors back in the 70s, they inject at 200 bar, ish. which is 3000psi, fairly low pressure? The nozzle holes, I used to clean with a fine wire tool, much the same size as a hair so ball point pen?
I dont recognise your descriptions, where did you get them from?
Stu

 

[JumbleDuck]

I started refurbing injectors back in the 70s, they inject at 200 bar, ish. which is 3000psi, fairly low pressure?

Comparatively low, yes. Modern common-rail diesel car engines can inject at anything from 1,000 - 3,000 BAR.

 

[Kelpie]

People are talking as though there is going to be an overnight switch to 100% electric vehicles with no other changes to the power network. That's obviously not going to happen.
We are already seeing a power generation revolution with the enormous growth of renewables. Solar and onshore wind are now cheaper than other forms of generation. We simply need to organise the power/transport system so that vehicles can act as energy storage buffers. It's potentially a great pairing up, the questions are how the details will be done and who will own the fleets of driverless vehicles, who will own/control the charging network, and how that will be billed.

 

[JumbleDuck]

We are already seeing a power generation revolution with the enormous growth of renewables. Solar and onshore wind are now cheaper than other forms of generation. We simply need to organise the power/transport system so that vehicles can act as energy storage buffers. It's potentially a great pairing up, the questions are how the details will be done and who will own the fleets of driverless vehicles, who will own/control the charging network, and how that will be billed.

You are right that (a) change is coming (b) we'll use a lot more renewables (c) we'll need HUGE amount of storage. About a week's worth, seems to be the general estimate, to cover overcast and not terribly windy weather.

Dinorwig holds about 10GWh, which means it can meet average UK demand *385TWh/y) for about 13 minutes. That Tesla battery in South Australia? 129MWh, which is ten seconds of UK average demand. So ... another 750 Dinorwigs or 10,000 Tesla battery systems.

Against that, storing in 10 millions electric cars is quite an attractive idea, but there lots of issues to work out. People would need to leave almost-fully charged cars plugged in. There would have to be some way of saying "don't discharge below x% - I need the car tomorrow" or "don't discharge at all". Perhaps if electricity for cars was free as long as they were available as stores for enough of the time it would work.

There are other potentially attractive technologies, of which my favourite is storing compressed air in old oil and gas wells, not least because, thanks to geothermal heating, you can get efficiencies of over 100%.

Driverless cars, though? I doubt it, except perhaps for a few very specialised purposes on dedicated roadways.

 

[Tranona]

Keeping drifting on cars - don't think anybody has thought through real life charging issues. How many cars are parked overnight close to a charging point? think of the huge numbers of cars just parked in the road - are we going to have charging points at the kerbside, or cables running across the pavement.

It is the mechanism for transferring energy from its generation or storage point to the point of usage which is the big constraint. This is where petrol or diesel score. Energy dense, quick and easy to store and transfer and on board storage provides a potentially large range of travel in miles or hours. Of course not everybody needs that, but the option is effectively no cost.

Most of those characteristics can be achieved with a hybrid and pretty sure that is the way cars will go for the mass market with niche markets for all electric. who knows what will come out of hybrid developments that might be transferrable to boats.

 

[RAI]

Most of those characteristics can be achieved with a hybrid and pretty sure that is the way cars will go for the mass market with niche markets for all electric. who knows what will come out of hybrid developments that might be transferrable to boats.

Seems a sensible first step before the infrastructure can catch up. Hybrids with enough battery capacity to enter and leave towns on electric propulsion alone. The primary issue is pollution in towns and cities by motor vehicles.

 

[BabaYaga]

It is the mechanism for transferring energy from its generation or storage point to the point of usage which is the big constraint. This is where petrol or diesel score. Energy dense, quick and easy to store and transfer and on board storage provides a potentially large range of travel in miles or hours. Of course not everybody needs that, but the option is effectively no cost.

I think the problem with electricity is not transfer, but storage. It is complicated, expensive and (in the case of electro chemistry) slow to store. Petrol and diesel, on the other hand, are highly inefficient in the conversion to propulsion because of the nature of the IC engine.
But the auto industry is a powerful force, so if and when they decide to go electric, I am fairly confident that they will drive down the cost and improve the performance of electricity storage.
So I agree strengthening the grid and providing charging infrastructure is probably a bigger challenge than increasing generation to meet the demand, especially for a country like the UK.
As for boating, my view is that electric propulsion will be a niche phenomenon for a long time, but I think those niches will broaden as battery technology improves and costs reduces.

 

[Tranona]

I think the problem with electricity is not transfer, but storage. It is complicated, expensive and (in the case of electro chemistry) slow to store. Petrol and diesel, on the other hand, are highly inefficient in the conversion to propulsion because of the nature of the IC engine.
But the auto industry is a powerful force, so if and when they decide to go electric, I am fairly confident that they will drive down the cost and improve the performance of electricity storage.
So I agree strengthening the grid and providing charging infrastructure is probably a bigger challenge than increasing generation to meet the demand, especially for a country like the UK.
As for boating, my view is that electric propulsion will be a niche phenomenon for a long time, but I think those niches will broaden as battery technology improves and costs reduces.

For both cars and boats transfer is a big issue. in the UK in urban settings few houses have either off street parking let alone a garage so are left in the street. Storage to an extent is solved as most people in urban areas do less than the range of a car such as a Leaf, but of course need overnight charging compared with once every couple of week's visit to a fuel station. The real problem is extra urban use where range is a big issue. Added to the slow recharge times, long distance travel will become long time travel, never mind the loss of independence.

While IC engines may be less efficient at conversion of energy to power, the fuel is much more dense and therefore takes up less space, making it ideal for small boats where space is at a premium and duration of running relatively short. More important many, probably a majority do not have ready access to shore power. Again a hybrid may be the answer, but there needs to be a leap in development of integrated systems that are similar size to current diesels. I can't see this happening for the tiny boat market so it will have to be a derivative of something designed for a mass application.

 

[prv]

The Euro v spec engines we fit are constantly looking at their pollution level, fuel trim and remembering settings. Switching of the power is classed as a soft reset and I can't see how the powers that be can implement that standard on a marine engine.

Presumably the memory card in your digital camera also forgets all your photos when you take it out of the camera, thus disconnecting any power supply?

No?

Non-volatile memory has been around for decades.

Pete

 

[JumbleDuck]

It is the mechanism for transferring energy from its generation or storage point to the point of usage which is the big constraint. This is where petrol or diesel score.

Indeed. It's a pretty feeble petrol pump which can't manage 10 litres per minute. At a typical 34 MJ per litre, that's 340 MJ/minute or 5.7 MW, for which you'd need a 23 kA mains supply at 240V. Which is why I can put three hundred miles' worth of fuel in my car in 5 minutes while the cha I know witha Tesla has to wait an hour for less than 200 miles. If the charging point is free.

I think shared electric cars, like city car clubs, might make sense for local trips.

 

[TSB240]

So here we all are worrying about our oil burners that we use when the wind doesnt blow in our little rarely used floating caravans that sometime actually leave a marina.

I am pretty sure that the heavy marine transport industry are contributing a huge percentage of the damaging air pollution. I dont hear any plans to convert them all to electric propulsion. Not many charging points mid atlantic! The cruise ships docking in main ports/cities have been forced to turn their inefficient generators off and plug in to a clean air electric shore supply!
If the problem of air pollution is to be tackled surely one needs to look at the major contributors first. I very much doubt the occasional use of a 10 to 30hp yacht engine should be a real world solution or priority.

 

[Kelpie]

Keeping drifting on cars - don't think anybody has thought through real life charging issues. How many cars are parked overnight close to a charging point? think of the huge numbers of cars just parked in the road - are we going to have charging points at the kerbside, or cables running across the pavement.

It is the mechanism for transferring energy from its generation or storage point to the point of usage which is the big constraint. This is where petrol or diesel score. Energy dense, quick and easy to store and transfer and on board storage provides a potentially large range of travel in miles or hours. Of course not everybody needs that, but the option is effectively no cost.

Most of those characteristics can be achieved with a hybrid and pretty sure that is the way cars will go for the mass market with niche markets for all electric. who knows what will come out of hybrid developments that might be transferrable to boats.

Why would the car have to be parked outside your house? If it's driverless, it drops you at your doorstep and then goes somewhere more convenient to be recharged.