New engines could be a problem

[Heckler]

Comparatively low, yes. Modern common-rail diesel car engines can inject at anything from 1,000 - 3,000 BAR.

I know. My point was 200 bar is not low pressure and the hole sizes in the old injectors are very fine. The fuel filters in the early Peugeot common rail systems were the same as ours, CAV 296. The nozzles that I used to refurb had needles in them that were of such fine tolerance that holding them in fingers for more than a few minutes made it difficult to get them in to the nozzle because of thermal expansion. Nothing new really in the way of hardware to worry about as long as the filters are attended to, the issue will be the electronics and protecting connections.
S

 

[geem]

I know. My point was 200 bar is not low pressure and the hole sizes in the old injectors are very fine. The fuel filters in the early Peugeot common rail systems were the same as ours, CAV 296. The nozzles that I used to refurb had needles in them that were of such fine tolerance that holding them in fingers for more than a few minutes made it difficult to get them in to the nozzle because of thermal expansion. Nothing new really in the way of hardware to worry about as long as the filters are attended to, the issue will be the electronics and protecting connections.
S

+1

 

[JumbleDuck]

Why would the car have to be parked outside your house? If it's driverless, it drops you at your doorstep and then goes somewhere more convenient to be recharged.

That's a very, very big if. Anyway in most towns there is barely enough parking when it;s distributed along teh streets. Where are 20,000 electric cars in oxford going to meet for recharging?

I know. My point was 200 bar is not low pressure and the hole sizes in the old injectors are very fine.

Compared tp 3,000 bar, 200 bar is low-ish, and traditional injectors, delicate though they certainly are, are agricultural compared to modern ones.

 

[Concerto]

Only electric only cars need to be plugged in. Hybrid cars are charged using a petrol engine and regenerative braking. See item 2 on this web page by Toyota. https://www.toyota.co.uk/hybrid/simple-truths.json So many of the comments about new power stations may be wildly over estimated.

My understanding of the ban on new petrol and diesel cars in 2040 was for their sole use, not combined with a hybrid technology. In a radio interview, the leader of the Petrol Retailers Association said he expected hydrogen to become a new source of fuel for mobile machines like cars, buses, lorries, etc. So this may be the fuel of choice for boats in the future.

 

[Kelpie]

That's a very, very big if. Anyway in most towns there is barely enough parking when it;s distributed along teh streets. Where are 20,000 electric cars in oxford going to meet for recharging?

Ah but they won't need 20,000 cars if most of them are driverless.
As to the size of the 'if'... technology moves quickly, and 23 years is a long time.
Every new Tesla already has self driving hardware fitted. It's the regulatory system which will take the longest; the technology is already here.

 

[Pete7]

Where are 20,000 electric cars in oxford going to meet for recharging?

How about all those empty petrol stations? and how about all those second hand car dealers. Since you will probably rent your electric car either by PCP or by the hour and supplied to you by Amazon, Currys or British Gas etc.

Pete

 

[JumbleDuck]

Only electric only cars need to be plugged in. Hybrid cars are charged using a petrol engine and regenerative braking.

True, but they have titchy batteries and unimpressive mileage. The technology will get better, of course, but for now they are mainly a way of dodging congestion charges.

In a radio interview, the leader of the Petrol Retailers Association said he expected hydrogen to become a new source of fuel for mobile machines like cars, buses, lorries, etc. So this may be the fuel of choice for boats in the future.

I'd be surprised. Not only is hydrogen a pain to store; it's also only economically possible to make by reforming methane, which rather defeats the "let's not use as much fossil fuel" side of things. People who suggest electrolysis with renewable electricity haven't looked at the efficiency of electrolysis ...

 

[JumbleDuck]

Ah but they won't need 20,000 cars if most of them are driverless.

They don't need 20,000 cars now, but they have 'em.

Every new Tesla already has self driving hardware fitted. It's the regulatory system which will take the longest; the technology is already here.

The technology is nowhere near here. It's so far from here that you need to zoom out Google maps seven times just to have it on the same screen as here. Tesla's Autopilot provides some steering assistance to the driver, who is instructed to keep their hands on the wheel at all times, in a few very simple situations only. Google's self driving cars trundle round very slowly and can't cope with bicycles. If you saw "Rise of the Robots" on BBC4 you'll have seen just how dreadful current AI is and how very, very far it is from the hype.

And ... relax.

 

[JumbleDuck]

How about all those empty petrol stations? and how about all those second hand car dealers. Since you will probably rent your electric car either by PCP or by the hour and supplied to you by Amazon, Currys or British Gas etc.

Yeah, just like we could at the moment, just as we could all be renting our televisions from DER.

I'm actually quite keen on electric cars, but I think they will have to fit in to the current pattern of car ownership and use. It's entirely possible that short-term rental will prove popular in urban areas, as it is in some towns today, but ownership has its attractions. As witness marinas stuffed with boats whose owners would be far more sensible, economically, to rent them by the day.

 

[ex-Gladys]

Been following this thread, and am surprised that no one has mentioned the decision made in the same week as electric cars in 2040 that the two big railway electrifications were cancelled... Government (surprise surprise) speaks with forked tongue...

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I'm going to have to be very careful what I say here, as I've learnt some things about the next stages of charging technology research under confidentiality agreements. Please understand that I know more than I can say here; but please don't ask questions that I must decline to answer.

First, there are initiatives into optimizing charging regimes, using a variety of both technical and social mechanisms to smooth out demand and even to use vehicles as a storage pool. The problem is a very interesting one crossing the boundaries of Operational Research, Economics and Sociology!

Second, there is a lot of research into considerably improved fuel cell and rechargeable battery technology. These are far removed from current methods of cell construction, and promise much higher efficiencies and far faster charging rates. Again a very exciting area of research crossing many areas of science.

The initiatives I know of are from one small corner of academia, and I am sure that those I know of are only a small proportion of the total effort going into this field.

All of this is taking place right now, and I think that in 3-5 years, there could be considerable shifts in the technology.

 

[Kelpie]

They don't need 20,000 cars now, but they have 'em.



The technology is nowhere near here. It's so far from here that you need to zoom out Google maps seven times just to have it on the same screen as here. Tesla's Autopilot provides some steering assistance to the driver, who is instructed to keep their hands on the wheel at all times, in a few very simple situations only. Google's self driving cars trundle round very slowly and can't cope with bicycles. If you saw "Rise of the Robots" on BBC4 you'll have seen just how dreadful current AI is and how very, very far it is from the hype.

And ... relax.

Oh. That's not what their website says or shows:
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/autopilot

 

[JumbleDuck]

Oh. That's not what their website says or shows:
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/autopilot

They have the hardware. Big deal. That means they have cameras and controls for the brakes, accelerator and steering. They are nowhere near fully autonomous vehicle, and neither is anyone else. That page is a list of hopes - you'll note that it's all subject to "software validation" (ie getting it to work) and "regulatory approval" (ie not killing too many people). At the moment you get some assistance with steering on clear, straightish roads, as long as you keep your hands on the wheel, and that's yer lot. If Tesla produced cars as well as they produce bullshit we'd all be flying around in them by now.

There are some people who have trusted Tesla cars to drive. At least two of them are dead - one whose car ploughed straight into a crossing HGV it didn't notice and one which went off a mountain road, having previously told the driver seven times that he needed to take over.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

They have the hardware. Big deal. That means they have cameras and controls for the brakes, accelerator and steering. They are nowhere near fully autonomous vehicle, and neither is anyone else. That page is a list of hopes - you'll note that it's all subject to "software validation" (ie getting it to work) and "regulatory approval" (ie not killing too many people). At the moment you get some assistance with steering on clear, straightish roads, as long as you keep your hands on the wheel, and that's yer lot. If Tesla produced cars as well as they produce bullshit we'd all be flying around in them by now.

There are some people who have trusted Tesla cars to drive. At least two of them are dead - one whose car ploughed straight into a crossing HGV it didn't notice and one which went off a mountain road, having previously told the driver seven times that he needed to take over.

I think that in both cases the driver was warned to take over - the one that crashed into an HGV was being "driven" by someone who had not touched the steering wheel for a majority of the journey; AFAIUI the car had repeatedly warned him to steer. I also understand that the accident might not have been fatal in this country - American trucks don't have the side-bars to prevent cars from going underneath the chassis that European trucks do. Tesla do make it clear that their system does NOT replace the driver (any more than our autopilots replace the navigational skills and lookout capabilities of the crew!)

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think that in both cases the driver was warned to take over - the one that crashed into an HGV was being "driven" by someone who had not touched the steering wheel for a majority of the journey; AFAIUI the car had repeatedly warned him to steer. I also understand that the accident might not have been fatal in this country - American trucks don't have the side-bars to prevent cars from going underneath the chassis that European trucks do. Tesla do make it clear that their system does NOT replace the driver (any more than our autopilots replace the navigational skills and lookout capabilities of the crew!)

Thanks. I can't help wondering why a car which is desperate to be steered keeps ploughing on at high speed and doesn't gradually brake to a halt.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Thanks. I can't help wondering why a car which is desperate to be steered keeps ploughing on at high speed and doesn't gradually brake to a halt.

Well, Elon Musk doesn't seem at all keen on slowing down - ever!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Well, Elon Musk doesn't seem at all keen on slowing down - ever!

I think he has been latched on to as the new Steve Jobs, and is treated with the same quasi-religious fervour. Americans gotta have their technological messiahs.

 

[Heckler]

That's a very, very big if. Anyway in most towns there is barely enough parking when it;s distributed along teh streets. Where are 20,000 electric cars in oxford going to meet for recharging?



Compared tp 3,000 bar, 200 bar is low-ish, and traditional injectors, delicate though they certainly are, are agricultural compared to modern ones.

The filters dont differ much from the agricultural ones that you refer to. I repeat, the issue is going to be the
electronic and connections. Its not going to bother me anyway. my MD22 has a spare sitting in the garage!
Stu
Stu

 

[Heckler]

Thanks. I can't help wondering why a car which is desperate to be steered keeps ploughing on at high speed and doesn't gradually brake to a halt.

My daughters Golf has most of the self drive gizmos on already, Everything except the steering and I suspect that is hidden in the software somewhere. Anyway was driving it the other week with the distance braking on, I wondered what would happen if I got too close to the stopped car in front of me. It started by braking hard then it started squeaking at me and a sign came up on the dash BRAKE HARD NOW!
But it didnt actuall come to stop, it waited for me!
Stu

 

[Heckler]

I'm going to have to be very careful what I say here, as I've learnt some things about the next stages of charging technology research under confidentiality agreements. Please understand that I know more than I can say here; but please don't ask questions that I must decline to answer.

First, there are initiatives into optimizing charging regimes, using a variety of both technical and social mechanisms to smooth out demand and even to use vehicles as a storage pool. The problem is a very interesting one crossing the boundaries of Operational Research, Economics and Sociology!

Second, there is a lot of research into considerably improved fuel cell and rechargeable battery technology. These are far removed from current methods of cell construction, and promise much higher efficiencies and far faster charging rates. Again a very exciting area of research crossing many areas of science.

The initiatives I know of are from one small corner of academia, and I am sure that those I know of are only a small proportion of the total effort going into this field.

All of this is taking place right now, and I think that in 3-5 years, there could be considerable shifts in the technology.

The elephant in the room that everyone keeps avoiding is where is all this power going to come from?
Stu