New engine, or a good secondhand/reconditioned one ?

sarabande

sarabande

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A sailing friend has suffered over the last decades with dodgy diesel engines of less than perfect reliability, causing him considerable grief and oily paws.

He is at a crossroads between lashing out loads of loot on a new engine and associated systems, and going for a used/reconditioned option, when the difference in money would underpin possible modifications to the associated systems, or even a few other items for his sailing boat.


It's very difficult to quantify the advantages of one route over the other, but any views and suggestions will be welcome.


Just to put some figures on the question, I'd hazard a wild guess for 10 more years before he takes up golf, and probably around 200 hours a year.
 
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"Reconditioned" engines seem to be somewhat disappointing, if threads here are to be believed. I'd only buy a reconditioned engine from a franchised dealer for the particular make of engine. Not necessarily any better, but at least they have a serious reputation to uphold.
 
I recently had this problem, I settled for a new engine, it really does depend on how much time you are going have on your hands should a refurb go wrong, if it helps the cheapest package I could find was a thornycroft, 20hp cost 3.5k,same as a decent brand refurbished engine really

Pete
 
Tried a decent second hand engine from a reputable source. Arrived ceased. Minor battle to get it sorted, RYA legal was my friend. Bourght a new one instead.

Savings would have been about 30% over new. However, when you add in all the other stuff you change at the same time, the saving would have been more like 15% overall. For that. I'd preffer a new one with the peace of mind that brings.
 
Try Marine Enterprises in Dorset who seem to have a good choice of engines. However, if replacing an old style engine in an old boat, it is like a completely new installation and you find that just about everything needs replacing - controls, water and fuel systems, electrics, exhaust, stern gear so the potential £2k saving of a used engine falls as a proportion of the overall cost. Remember that all these bits are either incompatible or are 30-40 years old so having all new is often the best solution.
 
I had a reconditioned VP fitted by my local dealership on the uk south coast. I have just had it rebuilt and discovered some faults that were probably there when I bought it. Not all reconditioned engines are equal apparently!
 
I noticed some time ago that almost all the recon engines sold by a particular company were described as being low hours and only changed to upgrade to a bigger engine. The same company offered to buy any engine in any condition, going or not. I wondered what they did with all the old, knackered and unreliable engines they bought.

Reconditioning seems to cover everything from a splash of paint to a complete strip down and 'blueprint' rebuild. (I suspect, but may well be wrong, it's usually nearer the former.) Shouldn't one be able to expect a reconditioned engine to come with an itemised list of what work has been done to it, what has been replaced, and measurements of what was found to be in spec or good enough? If the work is being done, the cost of itemising it as it goes along shouldn't come to much, and would make it more saleable. Does this ever happen?
 
The only engine I would trust would be an ex-works with warranty or one that I had stripped and rebuilt myself.
 
Twenty-two years ago I made the decision. The engine then worked ok but was 31 years old, obviously not in the better maintenance regime over those years, unsophisticated (ie noisy, full of vibration and a general seep of fluids). I decided I was going to keep the boat for many years and so it was a worthwhile investment - investment in us and pleasure rather than the value of the boat. Twenty-two years has had annual services by me (it's simples), replaced glow plugs and the exhaust elbow (still standard service items). It seems it was well worth it. Oh - and the weight of the engine and drivetrain halved the weight of it by the replacement - it seems to have also benefitted from the balance of the boat.
 
A reconditioned can net you a big saving AND a reliable engine, BUT only if its been done properly.

Lots of companies are a bit obscure about what they actually do, for example 'All our engines are thoroughly inspected by one of our expert mechanics, any worn parts are replaced.'

Sounds good, but what did they actually do?

Personally if I was buying a reconditioned engines I'd want to see a report including:
- The inspection list
- Works carried out to rectify any issues
- Receipts for parts used.
- Reports from testing, i.e. Compression test results. Injector service reports etc.
- All of this stamped and signed, so you have some comeback if they were less than honest.

With a new engine you get 30 years of advances in materials and design, a warranty, peace of mind, plus you won't have trouble finding the parts you need.
 
I did consider buying a recon engine to replace my Yamnar 2GM this spring. To avoid a wasted journey to collect it, I asked the dealer how thorough the overhaul was.
It seemed that when they get a 2nd hand engine in, they try and start it, if it runs they check that it's pumping water, then clean and spray it. Not much else unless it shows obvious faults.
I decided to pass and go for a new unit.
 
My experience was somewhat different to everyone else saying re-conditioned = beware.

I had realised that if you change from one engine type to another the cost of fitting and changing ancillaries can be a significant part of the overall package. So twice in my sailing time I have changed the existing Bukh for a replacement second hand one. In each case this avoided expensive re-fitting tweaks. In the first case we were based at a club with all equipment to hand and we did the whole job ourselves ( they had an engine hoist at the club) and then sold the old engine. It is time consuming but not difficult if swapping like for like. In the second case an engineer did the basic swap-over ( but I removed wooden panels to make the change over easier) and the money I git for selling the old unit more or less paid for the engineer's time and crane hire. BUT of course nothing else needed changing. If you go down this route you can swap things like alternator or wiring loom between engines depending on which one you think is best! For example we used the old wiring loom, so that we simply unplugged a few cables from the old engine and re-plugged them into the new engine.

As for the engines themselves, the first one was not re-conditioned but my colleague had it at home in his garage over the winter and stripped it down, in so-doing he found what the real problem was with the engine and replaced many parts. That engine saw many many hundreds of hours for us as far as S Ireland, Brittany and the Scillies. It ran so well and quietly after the genuine re-furbishment others thought we had put in a new engine.
The second engine ( different boat this time) was another Bukh, but the upgraded DV24 and bought from a firm in Poole, it again ran well and no problems in my ownership. With the serial number of the engine I was able to contact Bukh in Poole who could confirm some of the history.

So my experience with second hand Bukh's are good. The first one cost circa £700 plus another £1200 in parts ( labour was free), the second one was circa £2,000 from ebay ( or rather off ebay when it didnt sell). The cost of fitting in each case was negligible or covered by sale of old engine , and no ancillaries changed. The equivalent new cost would have been £5-7k depending on discounts. Other engines would have been cheaper to buy new, but by the time all the ancillaries have been changed and the higher costs of fitting ( for example changing the wiring loom over) I didn't feel there was much in it.

I must admit the like-for-like swap is only possible if the same engine or a very close relative has been manufactured for a long time as is the case for Bukh - 40 years at least I guess with only minor changes.
 
I bought a second hand Beta 20 from the local agent, a many well respected in these parts. He'd thoroughly checked it over but had not 'rebuilt' it whatever some may think that means.

Seven years later it remains faultless. Curiously I got £300 for the air cooled 15hp Ducati that it replaced.

I'm currently looking to buy a boat whose engine is now 30 years old. I have seen invoices for replacement of shells and rings etc around 10 years ago but remain uneasy simply because I do not know the attitude of the people who did it.

Bearing in mind the hassle of replacing inboard engines I would buy new if I did not know the supplier or keep the devil I know.
 
We fitted a new engine once. It replaced the so called reconditioned one that was on the boat when we bought her. Started when we pressed the button and stopped when we pulled the stop cable. It just ran and ran. What we really got for our money was "peace of mind".
 
I have been looking to buy a boat for some time - mostly they are 15 - 40 years old and one of the things I look out for is a newish engine. Preferably less than 10 years but up to 15 is acceptable as well. However a "reconditioned" engine scores very few points with me. One of the problems is that the seller typically provides very little information about the work done on the engine, let alone documents supporting that.

So if your friend does give up sailing in about 10 years time I think a 2017 engine will make selling easier.
 
If I was planning to keep my boat for ten years, id only consider a new engine. it seams good deals can be had and to keep costs down DIY installation is an option. I have a Bukh dv 20 in very good order that I'm fitting to my boat, but I do wonder if I am really doing the right thing. Taking in to account a new Beta comes with engine mounts and couplings, in the long term id be better of with a new engine.

Steveeasy
 
sarabande said:
A sailing friend has suffered over the last decades with dodgy diesel engines of less than perfect reliability, causing him considerable grief and oily paws.

He is at a crossroads between lashing out loads of loot on a new engine and associated systems, and going for a used/reconditioned option, when the difference in money would underpin possible modifications to the associated systems, or even a few other items for his sailing boat.


It's very difficult to quantify the advantages of one route over the other, but any views and suggestions will be welcome.


Just to put some figures on the question, I'd hazard a wild guess for 10 more years before he takes up golf, and probably around 200 hours a year.
Click to expand...

A new engine is only a new engine for a fleeting moment before becoming another used engine.
A few years down the line, reliability is as much to do with how it has been treated as the age.
Three winters of damp neglect will have the gloss off it literally and otherwise.
'200 hours' in a year could be ten channel crossings under steam, or 400 on/off the mooring.

Is the nature of his issues with current/previous engine(s) telling us anything?
Or has he just bought old bangers?
Are they problems that a 3 year old engine really could not have?
Some people have very little trouble with quite old, high hours motors, others seem to have issues with relatively new stuff.
A lot of boat problems don't seem to be the basic bits of the engine, or not related to actual wear of metal parts.
 
Recon-
Valves,guides and seats as necessary.
Skim
Pistons,rings,rebore/resleeve.
Big ends and main bearing regrind and new shells.
Cam belt/chain
Camshaft regrind with bearings if necessary.
Oil pump.
Injectors and pump servicing
Waterpump.
Turbo recon if fitted.
Thats a reconned engine plus maybe other peripherals.
However in my experience very few boat auxiliary engines put in any real mileage so to speak.
My mercedes om 636 heading for forty based on overall wear I guesstimate has done about 60,000 road miles
equivalent.
 
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