New build bluewater cruising boats

[Tranona]

Why is the mass produced AWB figure staggering? They are mass produced and thus a) available and b) cheaper than single or low production run boats.

Think the point that is being made is that even if people have the money they still don't buy old type boats. Most of the boats in that list cost more than say, a new Rustler 36 - sorry to use that again, but it is just about the only old style boats still available new - which many dreamers might consider the perfect boat for the job. Just think, if only 10% of the ARC competitors bought one it would be the equivalent of 15 years production at the present rate.

The Des Sleightholm quote above is the closest to the truth - you go with what you have got (or can afford to buy), and the more money you have the greater the choice.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Think the point that is being made is that even if people have the money they still don't buy old type boats.

Well, they don't buy new old type boats. Why should they? There are plenty of old old type boats available. There are hardly any manufacturers selling boats under 30' any more, but that's not because nobody wants to sail boats under 30'; it's because there are vast numbers of second hand boats under 30' available at a fraction of what something new would have to cost.

 

[Tempus]

Well, they don't buy new old type boats. Why should they? There are plenty of old old type boats available. There are hardly any manufacturers selling boats under 30' any more, but that's not because nobody wants to sail boats under 30'; it's because there are vast numbers of second hand boats under 30' available at a fraction of what something new would have to cost.

But the original post asked about blue water boats the point is that perceptions of blue water boats are changing, and that whilst there are many very capable 30 footers available second hand, they do not seem to be heavily used for offshore voyages.

 

[Tranona]

Well, they don't buy new old type boats. Why should they? There are plenty of old old type boats available. There are hardly any manufacturers selling boats under 30' any more, but that's not because nobody wants to sail boats under 30'; it's because there are vast numbers of second hand boats under 30' available at a fraction of what something new would have to cost.

Thought I had already made that point. The choice of boat is largely determined by the amount of money available - and those with the money don't seem to spend it on new "old style" boats.

 

[[70521]]

Think the point that is being made is that even if people have the money they still don't buy old type boats.

Time might also be a factor, why spent time looking for a "good old boat", fit her out and get to know it when you can buy a new one over the phone and it will be delivered 9 months later.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Thought I had already made that point. The choice of boat is largely determined by the amount of money available - and those with the money don't seem to spend it on new "old style" boats.

I thought I had already made that point. The choice of boat is largely determined by the style of boat you want - and those who want "old style" boats don't seem to spend money buying new examples.

 

[JumbleDuck]

But the original post asked about blue water boats the point is that perceptions of blue water boats are changing, and that whilst there are many very capable 30 footers available second hand, they do not seem to be heavily used for offshore voyages.

Are many modern yachts used for offshore voyages either, though? After all, the entire ARC fleet represents about 5% of the number of boats based on the Hamble river alone.

 

[Tranona]

I thought I had already made that point. The choice of boat is largely determined by the style of boat you want - and those who want "old style" boats don't seem to spend money buying new examples.

Chicken and egg (or is it duckling and egg?). You are assuming that if somebody had say £250k to spend on a boat they would only spend say £50k and keep the difference. Suggest such people are rare. More money gives you more choice.

 

[Tempus]

Are many modern yachts used for offshore voyages either, though? After all, the entire ARC fleet represents about 5% of the number of boats based on the Hamble river alone.

Agreed. I just think that the perception on this forum and elsewhere is that there are "proper" boats suitable for blue water and mass produced boats which are really only suitable for sitting having lunch in marinas. The evidence seems to be that those actually choosing to go far offshore do not hold the same views. I'm not extolling the virtues of any one boat, we owned a Hallberg Rassy for the last 13 years, just observing that times are moving on. I'm sure the security of the Arc and other events has helped drive the process.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Chicken and egg (or is it duckling and egg?). You are assuming that if somebody had say £250k to spend on a boat they would only spend say £50k and keep the difference. Suggest such people are rare. More money gives you more choice.

But you in turn seem to be suggesting that people say "I could spent £250k on a boat so I must spend £250k on a boat" and not "Oh good, I can get the boat I like for £50k, so I'll spend the other £200k on something else." And if it's a wide choice you want, you can get heck of a lot more boat of any sort when you buy second hand. Your hypothetical buyer who is determined to spend £250k, no more and no less, is really quite restricted if s/he only looks at new boats.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Agreed. I just think that the perception on this forum and elsewhere is that there are "proper" boats suitable for blue water and mass produced boats which are really only suitable for sitting having lunch in marinas. The evidence seems to be that those actually choosing to go far offshore do not hold the same views.

Ellam and Mudie proved that you didn't need heavy displacement for ocean crossings 60 years ago. Nowadays the prevailing wisdom seems to be that you need 40', watermaker, fuel for 2,000 miles, two vast aft cabins, hot showers ... it's ironic that those who say you can do long voyages in older, smaller, slimmer boats are more in tune, despite the heavy displacement, with the spirit of Sopranino than those who insist that you need to spend £250k on a modern boat to go long distance.

 

[Tranona]

Ellam and Mudie proved that you didn't need heavy displacement for ocean crossings 60 years ago. Nowadays the prevailing wisdom seems to be that you need 40', watermaker, fuel for 2,000 miles, two vast aft cabins, hot showers ... it's ironic that those who say you can do long voyages in older, smaller, slimmer boats are more in tune, despite the heavy displacement, with the spirit of Sopranino than those who insist that you need to spend £250k on a modern boat to go long distance.

You can also do it in a converted beer barrel or a rowing boat. We also used to live (in my lifetime) in houses with no proper heating, ice on the inside of windows, loo at the bottom of the garden and cooking over a gas ring. Don't think many would do that through choice now.

 

[JumbleDuck]

You can also do it in a converted beer barrel or a rowing boat. We also used to live (in my lifetime) in houses with no proper heating, ice on the inside of windows, loo at the bottom of the garden and cooking over a gas ring. Don't think many would do that through choice now.

And yet the harbours and anchorages are full of people having fun in simpler boats. Odd, that. How dare they?

I don't care, myself, what sort of boats people want to sail. Float and let float, I say.

 

[doug748]

But the original post asked about blue water boats the point is that perceptions of blue water boats are changing, and that whilst there are many very capable 30 footers available second hand, they do not seem to be heavily used for offshore voyages.

Noo.

Many harbours, away from the Solent and other hotbeds of day sailing, seem to have a clutch of sailors quietly getting on with remarkable sailing feats.

They have all sorts of craft,except newish 34ft plus plastic boats. These are the folk that are really just getting on with it.


The figures from the millionaires rally are a very dodgy touchstone.

 

[Tempus]

Noo.

Many harbours, away from the Solent and other hotbeds of day sailing, seem to have a clutch of sailors quietly getting on with remarkable sailing feats.

They have all sorts of craft,except newish 34ft plus plastic boats. These are the folk that are really just getting on with it.


The figures from the millionaires rally are a very dodgy touchstone.

You are misunderstanding my point. I'm not denying that traditional boats are great fun, or that many are used heavily. My point was that I take issue with the notion that you need a "proper" ie "traditional" boat to go Blue Water. My reasons for quoting the ARC stats was to demonstrate that those who do, rather than those who dream, are happy to do so in a modern AWB. I agree, many others do great things in traditional boats, and if that's all you've got and can afford then go for it!, but the constant worry about keels falling off, rudders being lost and delamination doesn't seem to worry the "millionaires on the rally" with the cash to put their money on the line.

 

[JumbleDuck]

My reasons for quoting the ARC stats was to demonstrate that those who do, rather than those who dream, are happy to do so in a modern AWB.

Some of those who do. The ARC is a rather self-selecting sample. Did you notice that most of the boats in the OGA Round Britain rally were traditional?

 

[Tempus]

Did you notice that most of the boats in the OGA Round Britain rally were traditional?

Of course they were. The old gaffers association exists to promote traditional boats. I'd have thought they were all traditional, with any AWB given the cold shoulder. Also, and regretably, the waters around Britain are not very blue!

Let me repeat. I am not saying that traditional boats cannot or are not used for blue water, although I suspect the number of oga members setting off lightly crewed offshore these days is tiny, i'm observing that many people, possibly up to 1/3rd, go blue water cruising in a mass production AWB, and many live to tell the tale! Hence the original question of suitable blue water cruising boats, with the usual list of ideals no longer fits reality. The ideal cruising boat is the one you can afford, or own, which suits your cruising style.