New build bluewater cruising boats

[bbg]

If you mean that people who don't do it are the ones that lean towards the old design, and the ones who actually do it lean towards new designs, then I guess I agree with you.

I've only done it once and would happily do it in the same light modern boat again if I could afford it.

 

[Tranona]

There are people who take off in small, older boats, perhaps because that is all they could afford or because they like a minimalist lifestyle, or just the challenge of battling the elements.

My feeling is that the amount of money available is a big determinant. The more money available, the greater the choice. Being able to make that choice means the thought processes are different than when you are dreaming about what choice you might have, but don't have the money to follow it through. You only have to look at the number of attempts there have been to try and build new boats with the characteristics (or even just the looks) of older designs that have failed to sell in any numbers. This despite critical acclaim, lots of free publicity etc. The Rustler 36 is a good example. Despite a steady stream of favourable press reports, patronage of a senior member of the Royal family, they have still only managed to sel an average of 2 a year over the last 10 years or so. Even the Royal boat at a relatively modest sub £100k price tag took months to sell so not surprising that finding people who are prepared to spend well over twice that for a new one is pretty difficult.

Not knocking the boat per se as it clearly delivers what it promises and if spending £70-80k on a long distance boat it makes a lot of sense, but not if you have £250k+ to spend (and want to spend it all). So, if you prefer an older style boat, buy an old one. Most were very well built and respond well to updating in the equipment area.

 

[doug748]

That is the the real issue. Read Old Varnish's account of his recent down to Cape Horn and back trip. His biggest problem was keeping the boat moving in light airs and the amount of time spent going to windward in heavy weather was minimal as a proportion of his total time at sea - although he did experience some very extreme weather on his return. A lot of image of ocean sailing is based on things like the OSTAR and going round the world against the prevailing wind and the tales of derring do by our intrepid sailing heroes when in reality most people seem to do their best to avoid such conditions. Perhaps that is why modern boats have become so popular - why have a boat that is at its best for perhaps less than 5% of the time? - or even less if you plan well and have a good slice of luck. That way you can benefit from the undoubted advantages of modern boats for the majority of your time at sea.

So Old Varnish picked the wrong boat, if only he had asked in advance.

Maybe he can part ex it for a Pogo; don't know what the missus would say though.

 

[JumbleDuck]

There are a lot of romantics in yachting, feeding off a diet of Hiscock etc

If we weren't romantic, we'd take the ferry. Recreational sailing is invariably irrational, and one person's irrationality is no less or more meritorious than another's. I don't sneer at people who choose modern looking yachts (though I may wince a bit if they come in view).

 

[Neil_Y]

Not really inconsistent bbg. There are far more dreamers asking the question than sailors crossing the oceans, and the dreamers are the ones in my experience that get hung up on long keels, steel hulls, heavy boats, multi mast rigs etc. There are a lot of romantics in yachting, feeding off a diet of Hiscock etc

Spot on, I have sailed upwind for 2 days in Biscay in November in 3m+breaking seas with a storm sail and fully reefed main in winds that peaked at 55knots so we hove to for a night. We were comfortable (ish). A Nic 55 in the same piece of bad weather had most of her crew give up and fly home (this is what we heard on arrival in Coruna) We got there in a similar time to the Nic. My boat was a Bavaria (admittedly from 1991 so a bit better/stronger I believe than newer versions) a light(ish) weight boat with a large rig. Fin keels go well upwind. There are many similar boats out there with happy ocean sailors and crew.

 

[Seven Spades]

The Beneteau Figaro (I and II) is 33ft or 34ft and is made for the purpose of crossing oceans.

One of the problems with a manufacturer keeping an old design going is that after about 12+ years it becomes harder and harder to sell new boats because there will be very good quality used boats around that will undermine the value of new boats.

 

[doug748]

"My boat was a Bavaria (admittedly from 1991 so a bit better/stronger I believe than newer versions)"



I detect a schism here. What you were sailing was a MAAWB.




"A Nic 55 in the same piece of bad weather had most of her crew give up and fly home"


Seajet has a tale of how his 22footer handles a blow better than a Rival, so this is not unknown.

 

[Blueboatman]

One wonders how the crew flew home from being hove to in a storm but its a great story of courage tenacity and good conservative boatbuilding. A pic of the bow sections of the two boats in question might show certain useful similarities as well?
BTW I have crossed Biscay under storm canvas in November, those waves can be highly dangerous with relation to the shallowing depths and proximity of a reflective lee shore. Depends exactly where you are and what wind direction I tentatively suggest.

Edit. Those Nic55s were used a lot for joint services and sea adventuring sort of stuff. A friend skippers one ( and hahA saved our bacon once after our November crossing g in a very old Baltic metre boat that had no business offshore ),
Perhaps scaring the inexperienced crew was part of the deal?

 

[Tranona]

So Old Varnish picked the wrong boat, if only he had asked in advance.

Don't know how you come to that conclusion. Just using his experience to illustrate perhaps why many people seem to prefer modern boats - see Ariadne's earlier post for another perspective.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Never crossed the Atlantic or done any blue water sailing, but I do know a man who sailed from the other side back to the UK in a Bavaria and I know for a fact he is still alive. (so is the boat)

 

[Shuggy]

I don't think that I'm answering the OP's question but we have a 42 year old Nic 43 - a very pretty boat with amazing rough weather capability. Do I think she'd cross the Atlantic and look after us? Absolutely. She's the best wild weather boat I've ever been on. Would I want to? No. We'd all be on top of each other and and the stowage for water, food and gear is awful. So across the Irish Sea in January she's a cracker (been there) but across the Atlantic in November we'd all go stir crazy and fight each other!

 

[Neil_Y]

"My boat was a Bavaria (admittedly from 1991 so a bit better/stronger I believe than newer versions)"



I detect a schism here. What you were sailing was a MAAWB. possibly, she was still 8T displacement with a biggish rig at 18m, and 3.9m beam, quite good in light weather, which few of the older "blue water" boats seem to be. Cetacea (roger Martin) was designed for Graham Palmer after he had circumnavigated in an old heavy boat, his thoughts were next trip I want a boat that sails easier in the light stuff.




"A Nic 55 in the same piece of bad weather had most of her crew give up and fly home"


Seajet has a tale of how his 22footer handles a blow better than a Rival, so this is not unknown.

Very very true, it's not what you sail it can be how you sail it.

 

[Tempus]

It has already been noted that the cruising world is heavily split between those who do it and those who dream and read about it. Regretably most of us are in the latter category.

Looking at those who do it, and to try to respond to the question. I have looked at the entries for the 2013 ARC. There are 208 boats entered in the cruising division. However only 31 of these are under 12m (ca 40ft).

Looking at the 12m boats only




So those that do are doing it AWB. Although I accept that the ARC may not be typcial, but it is at least a data point

Interestingly the average length in this year's ARC is 14m, around 46ft. Top Choices across all lengths are: Bavaria (21), Beneteau (21), Jenneau (17), Dufour (11), Oyster (11), X-Yachts (10), Hanse (9), Grand Soleil(7) Swan (6), Hallberg Rassy (6), Discovery (5), Southerly (5), Moody (5).

For the metal brigade, Ovni have 3 entries, and I think around 7 entries are not GRP.

 

[Sybarite]

Interestingly the average length in this year's ARC is 14m, around 46ft. Top Choices across all lengths are: Bavaria (21), Beneteau (21), Jenneau (17), Dufour (11), Oyster (11), X-Yachts (10), Hanse (9), Grand Soleil(7) Swan (6), Hallberg Rassy (6), Discovery (5), Southerly (5), Moody (5).

For the metal brigade, Ovni have 3 entries, and I think around 7 entries are not GRP.

I'm surprised Amel doesn't figure in this list. Traditionally it was one of the best represented makes in the ARC.

 

[Tempus]

I think it's quite a surprising list in many ways, which was why I published it, I think many people would have expected some brands to be more represented than they are, and the dominance of mass production AWB's is staggering, 1/3rd of all entries from just 5 volume manufacturers - I have a split of just British boats, (there are just under 70), we are slightly more conservative, and nationalistic.

Amel have 3 entries btw.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think it's quite a surprising list in many ways, which was why I published it, I think many people would have expected some brands to be more represented than they are, and the dominance of mass production AWB's is staggering...

Wouldn't those be the owners you'd most expect to want the support / safety net / backup of a cruise in company?

 

[Tempus]

Wouldn't those be the owners you'd most expect to want the support / safety net / backup of a cruise in company?

Very possibly, but

1 - I doubt any other list of boats crossing the Atlantic would differ hugely, but if anybody has another list so we can look at some real data, rather than anecdote, then it would be very interesting.

2 - I'm told by friends who have done it that the ARC does not feel much like a cruise in company 2 weeks in when you haven't seen another vessel for over a week.

3 - Most use the ARC as a jumping off point for a blue water cruise, so go on to more adventure alone.

My point is that the data suggest that those those that "do" are happy with AWB's and the fixation with long keels, skeg rudders and narrow sections for blue water is becoming largely confined to those who spend the winter not in the Caribbean or the South Seas but back in blighty reading Heavy Weather Sailing, and Cruises on Wander III.

There are some notable exceptions of course, and I'm full of admiration for them, but they seem to be just that, exceptions.

 

[Neil_Y]

Isn't the size of boats in the arc a result of their limits on min size? and many arc boats are new or newish first timers, less experience? But the list does reflect what you see. I was impressed by the variety and number of sub 30' boats on my last trip.

It does worry me slightly that there is this perception of safety in numbers idea, friends kids recently setting off from Sweden on round world trip planned to leave close to arc dates as a kind of safety net! I think that you can't appreciate the vast emptiness of a million square miles of water until you've been there, you are very much on your own and need to think that way should anything need fixing (done by simple maths looking at distance and track width possible 2700x400nm)

 

[Blueboatman]

The old, witty and quite wise editor of YM, Des Sleigtholme observed that 'most of us just go in what we have'.

I think that has changed, as volume production benefits and senior 'gap year' Atlantic circuits encourage bigger, newer, extended holiday vacation yachts, with if necessary a return trip thru the lumpy bits on a freighter which arguably is cheaper.

This is not a reflection of the boats but that, time =money and once you have retired and have money, just buy in and go.

The Arc thing and good communications makes it seem like the AA are handy if the boat gets really hammered along the way. Which in a sense they ( the AA) are to hand, like.

BTW I claim my prize for that last sentence as 'Worst Use Of English on a Monday Morning', please.

 

[[70521]]

I think it's quite a surprising list in many ways, which was why I published it, I think many people would have expected some brands to be more represented than they are, and the dominance of mass production AWB's is staggering, 1/3rd of all entries from just 5 volume manufacturers - I have a split of just British boats, (there are just under 70), we are slightly more conservative, and nationalistic.

Amel have 3 entries btw.

Why is the mass produced AWB figure staggering? They are mass produced and thus a) available and b) cheaper than single or low production run boats.