New boat warranty

As long ago as 1979 I had a problem with a boatyard being awkward about a warranty claim on a new boat.
I had bought a brand new Princess 33, from an Inland Marina. When it was launched for the first time I went along the Manchester Ship Canal, out through Eastham Locks and on to Hollyhead. During its maiden voyage a gearbox oil seal started leaking spewing oil out.
When I arrived in Holyhead I rang the boatyard about the leak and they said. "Bring the boat back and we will fix it for you"
 
Just picked up this thread and want to share my experience. Firstly you are not alone. After purchasing my boat in June2021 and I have had no end of issues, leaking stern gland, leaking mast collar, leaking fuel tank, pumps not working, batteries wired up incorrectly etc etc, and whilst I have made progress with the broker I have to continually hassle and they always try and argue or want proof with video and pictures. I sort of get this but after spending £500K you would have thought they would take my word for it. I have to email/phone weekly to get a response. I had issues with the bow thruster and SidePower made me pay to get it fixed (£3,500) and claim off the dealer. The dealer said not their issue and claim of the manufacturer. Still not resolved. I upgraded the AIS to B Plus and the same issue. B&G say brokers problem (who supplied) and broker says B&G's problem. They agreed to pay for the labour of local tradesmen to fix some of the issue. I have paid them but not seen a penny from the broker yet. The latest discovery was I ordered a Ambassador Rope Cutter which they charged me for and when the boat was lifted recently to get the rudders repaired after an "incident" with orcas in the straits of Gibraltar (another story) they had fitted a simple disc blade cutter which would have cost a tenth of what I paid for. This boat was not fit for purpose and they should not have delivered it to me in the state it was in.

I suspect they feel I am a pain in the arse but I am the customer and it leaves me deeply disappointed. I am always polite on the basis of not wanting them to get their backs up and get even a worse service. This is so wrong! I have just bought a new house for similar money and the builder responds immediately to every issue I have. What's the difference? When you spend these sums of money you expect a service but frankly I feel, after they have made the sale, they just aren't bothered. And I am not alone, I have a friend who bought a new Jeanneau 50 Yacht with a faulty gear box and the broker said it was ZF issue and ZF said it was the brokers. He ended up ordering and fitting a new box at his cost. Similar issues with a friend who bought a new Hanse 455 which had engine issues from day one. What is wrong with this industry!!!!! A guy in the US sued Discovery for a number of issues on his new boat which were far less than I have experienced and won compensation of over £1m based on inconvenience that it had upset his world circumnavigation plans. Maybe we should all get more litigious with these companies and I am not talking small claims court, get the lawyers out and get the guns blazing and make them think twice about the quality of their after market service. This was my retirement dream boat for my wife and I to sail the Mediterranean. Stories like this and the thread response makes my blood boil. PS This has now been going on since June and if I don't get satisfaction soon a "without prejudice" letter is on its way.
 
A bit confused by your terminology. You refer to a "broker", but a broker is not the person responsible for the faults on the boat. A "broker" in the normal meaning of the word is an intermediary acting on behalf of one of the parties in a transaction, but is not the supplier of the goods. The first line of responsibility is the firm with whom you had a contract for supply of the boat. That could be either a builder or a dealer. In law, both UK and EU that is the person/entity that is responsible for dealing with the faults, irrespective of who actually manufactured the faulty item.

The difficulty exercising your rights to get that person to comply is that boats are complex things made up of a whole range of items made by many different firms and few dealers, or even builders have the knowledge or infrastructure to correct faults. Add to that owners/buyers often (as seems to be your situation) move the boat to a different location from the supplier, adding further difficulties in getting things fixed. These problems get worse the bigger and more complex the boat and dare I say the more money you pay to get an arguably better built boat to your individual requirements with the additional risk of the supplier responsible going out of business.

Not very satisfactory, and I agree that what you describe is not unusual, but it is a reflection on the precarious nature of the business of building boats where there is simply not enough profit in the business to fund a proper after sales service. Just about every boatbuilder has been bust at some time in the past, many more than once and I guess that buyers need to be aware that if they buy such a product they are taking these sorts of risks. I have bought 2 new boats, both from dealers for a major builder, and have had none of the issues you describe. Part of my reason for buying a mainstream production boat was because I have been associated with the industry now for 40 years and watched people going through the sorts of problems you have experienced - and as I observed earlier they generally get worse the more you pay for the boat.
 
Guess he means the dealer.

I have to say I brought a new Dufour in 2009 and I too had some Problems from day one and until I had my solicitor send the dealer an letter telling them I was going to sue them that they got their fingers out and took on the responsibility to do the work,
Just to add Dufour did write to me at the time to say the dealer is allowed X amount to do the work involved and it was up to the dealer to do the work .


I can tell you there many out there in you position Mmorgen , one friend has a near on 1M boat and he been in a battle with the French company who build his boat .

Good lucky.
 
I’m sure that there are many on this forum, @mmorgan@peoplevalue.co.uk that feel your pain.

I think that new boat warranty is an abdication of responsibility by the Builder, no excuses. To state that if a component has another Makers Mark, it is their responsibility and is yours to resolve is a cop-out.

In my experience, the role of customer service by an Agent is seen as a job until something better comes along. It is not seen as a profession, hence the service is poor. I’ve witnessed a huge turnover of staff in my time as a new boat owner.

Also, using a network of Agents significantly dilutes an owners ability to get work done. The Builder doesn’t get to feel the pain of customer dissatisfaction so nothing will change. The average calibre of staff is a long way down the food chain compared to would-be expectations of a Builder representative.

Have you tried to elevate the issues? First port of call should be the Head of the Agent. With regard to equipment, it’s not hard to find the contact details for Head of European Operations, for example. I had to contact the head of Navico and the European head of Yanmar before I got any action.

Another alternative is to follow the small claims court procedure to the letter and keep copies of everything. This worked for me with an issue that manifested only after 5 years. A couple of days before I was prepared to submit a claim I received a fair and reasonable offer.

Tenacity and fortitude ?

Good luck.
 
Skylark said:
I’m sure that there are many on this forum, @mmorgan@peoplevalue.co.uk that feel your pain.

I think that new boat warranty is an abdication of responsibility by the Builder, no excuses. To state that if a component has another Makers Mark, it is their responsibility and is yours to resolve is a cop-out.

In my experience, the role of customer service by an Agent is seen as a job until something better comes along. It is not seen as a profession, hence the service is poor. I’ve witnessed a huge turnover of staff in my time as a new boat owner.

Also, using a network of Agents significantly dilutes an owners ability to get work done. The Builder doesn’t get to feel the pain of customer dissatisfaction so nothing will change. The average calibre of staff is a long way down the food chain compared to would-be expectations of a Builder representative.

Have you tried to elevate the issues? First port of call should be the Head of the Agent. With regard to equipment, it’s not hard to find the contact details for Head of European Operations, for example. I had to contact the head of Navico and the European head of Yanmar before I got any action.

Another alternative is to follow the small claims court procedure to the letter and keep copies of everything. This worked for me with an issue that manifested only after 5 years. A couple of days before I was prepared to submit a claim I received a fair and reasonable offer.

Tenacity and fortitude ?

Good luck.
Click to expand...
It depends on the exact status of the Agent - is the Agent a Broker (who merely acts as an intermediary) or a Dealer? In the former case, the seller is the builder, in which case your claim is against the Builder as @Skylark says. However, if the Agent is a Dealer, then under UK consumer law, you MUST approach the Dealer first; the seller is responsible for correcting any flaws; the builder would only be involved if the dealer refers the problems on to the builder.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
It depends on the exact status of the Agent - is the Agent a Broker (who merely acts as an intermediary) or a Dealer? In the former case, the seller is the builder, in which case your claim is against the Builder as @Skylark says. However, if the Agent is a Dealer, then under UK consumer law, you MUST approach the Dealer first; the seller is responsible for correcting any flaws; the builder would only be involved if the dealer refers the problems on to the builder.
Click to expand...
See post #64. The problem is that the builder does not give sufficient allowance to the dealer to deal with all warranty claims and many of such claims are for the equipment that is supplied to the builder by a third party. So you get caught in a ping pong of responsibility avoidance. Then to add to the mix, as in both the original post and this recent one the boat is now thousands of miles away from the dealer/builder with first line responsibility. Suspect also in at least one of the cases the dealer/builder has now gone out of business.

Risky activity buying a big expensive boat, particularly if semi custom built.
 
I am puzzled newer having bought a new boat.
The dealer is the retailer. Or if dealing directly then the builder then them.
You specify the options and they source them.

At the end of the build the company hands over the completed item. Under the sale of goods act is not the retailer responsible for sorting out the goods they sourced?
 
Tranona said:
A bit confused by your terminology. You refer to a "broker", but a broker is not the person responsible for the faults on the boat. A "broker" in the normal meaning of the word is an intermediary acting on behalf of one of the parties in a transaction, but is not the supplier of the goods. The first line of responsibility is the firm with whom you had a contract for supply of the boat. That could be either a builder or a dealer. In law, both UK and EU that is the person/entity that is responsible for dealing with the faults, irrespective of who actually manufactured the faulty item.

The difficulty exercising your rights to get that person to comply is that boats are complex things made up of a whole range of items made by many different firms and few dealers, or even builders have the knowledge or infrastructure to correct faults. Add to that owners/buyers often (as seems to be your situation) move the boat to a different location from the supplier, adding further difficulties in getting things fixed. These problems get worse the bigger and more complex the boat and dare I say the more money you pay to get an arguably better built boat to your individual requirements with the additional risk of the supplier responsible going out of business.

Not very satisfactory, and I agree that what you describe is not unusual, but it is a reflection on the precarious nature of the business of building boats where there is simply not enough profit in the business to fund a proper after sales service. Just about every boatbuilder has been bust at some time in the past, many more than once and I guess that buyers need to be aware that if they buy such a product they are taking these sorts of risks. I have bought 2 new boats, both from dealers for a major builder, and have had none of the issues you describe. Part of my reason for buying a mainstream production boat was because I have been associated with the industry now for 40 years and watched people going through the sorts of problems you have experienced - and as I observed earlier they generally get worse the more you pay for the boat.
Click to expand...
Sorry and yes I mean main dealer for the boat brand.
 
Have a look at U.K. builder ordered to pay more than $1.5 million for faulty boat. Clearly if you have the right resources then compensation is possible.

Bottom line, all I want, as I am sure is the same as everyone else in my position, is a boat that floats and does what it says in the brochure. Who pays for the repairs is almost irrelevant compared to the hassle of organising quotes, contacting manufactures, arranging for surveyors and trades people, ordering parts, getting the boat lifted, time in the yard etc etc. This whole process has been a significant project. Who pays for my time, and additional grey hair? It would have been great if the dealer had said no problem we will arrange for your boat to be picked up and repaired (like a new car). Clearly this is never going to happen. The issue with anything like this is you need a period of ownership and some serious sea miles to find all the problems and day sailing near the dealer is not going to cut it.

On another non related issue (rant coming on) the handover was a two hour sail and a quick run through the boat systems (and I mean quick less than 1 hour) at which point you should be able to slip and sail the world,.....bonkers. These are complex bits of kit especially the boat which I had purchased which on top of the Naviops boat management system (iPad type thing for all switches), had most options ticked. I believe dealers should offer formal training on both the boat systems and on water, over the course of a week with a test at the end to confirm your understanding. Happily pay for this. I am reasonably experienced and spent many hours reading all the manuals making diagrams of seacocks and emergency gear and familiarising myself with the equipment before heading off to the Mediterranean. Scarily, I could have just completed my day skippers course and jumped on board and rammed 23 tons into the nearest jetty. Any "dealers" reading this take note.

When I hit the brick wall with the dealer on the warranty issues I will send a letter under the consumer rights act here in the UK which does offer protection regardless of what the dealer puts in their contract. For the immediate short term I will persevere with the dealer. If I end up £10K out of pocket I will put it down to the cost of the boat rather than losing sleep over it. This is the first brand new boat I have purchased and, in hindsight, I should have added a contingency in my budget on the assumption that there will be issues and I will have to pay for them. Hopefully at the end of this sad saga and on a positive note, I will have a fairly sorted boat and a very deep understanding of most of the boats systems. The brand, by the way, is one of the main European production boat builders. My final advice to anyone is do not buy a new boat but one a few years old that some other poor b*stard has taken all the pain. Who knows when the new sales drop off maybe the manufacturers will be more generous with after market support to the dealers?
 
Your experience is little different from others. this may be of interest youtube.com/watch?v=a3KGCHop6eE and illustrates clearly the points you are making. Builders have rushed into loading boats up with lots of new gear to keep up with consumer demand and in many cases have no idea how it all works themselves, never mind ensuring that dealers have the knowledge and infrastructure to support their product and buyers. From what I have seen it is even worse with small volume builders as not only do they have the same issues of using gear and techniques they don't fully understand, but they are increasingly being built by people who have little experience in building such complex boats. This is because the builders have failed so many times that experienced people won't get involved any more. The brands get bought up by undercapitalised dreamers who employ inexperienced people. This is true to an extent with dealers who are largely reliant on subcontractors and self employed because the business in general is so insecure.

On the other hand as you have hinted it is perhaps unreasonable for buyers to think that they can take delivery of such complex bits of kit and sail off into the sunset without any problems - when experienced and successful sailors often take a year or 2 to get their boat prepared for long passages. This is true of both new and secondhand boats - the problems are similar just with a used boat you have replacements to deal with as well. At least with a new boat when you get it sorted you have 5-10 years before you get into any serious replacements.

There are ways to reduce the potential hassle. With my last purchase I chose a model that had been in production for some years and by today's standards was "simple" - even if I ticked just about all the boxes for "extras". However these were all well proven items and factory fitted. The only scary thing which I could not avoid was the electric systems which rely too much on circuit boards and relays for my liking, although I have to say it has not caused any real problems so far. The crucial thing for me though was to be in control of the commissioning which took 4 weeks including time having Coppercoat applied. I visited the boat 2 or 3 times a week and checked everything that was done and asked for explanations of every bit of gear. The handover was much as yours - but really all that was necessary. Fortunately I had the time and the knowledge to do this myself, but I would urge anybody who does not have the time or the confidence to employ a surveyor to do this for them - cost roughly £2-5k depending on the complexity of the boat. Money well spent.

As to getting redress, the Consumer Rights Act is the "rule book" of process and success in using it is as much to do with the process as the rights or wrongs of the claim. Make sure you have documented what happened and that you gave the dealer every opportunity to deal with the issues. If there is a "technical" issue look to have an expert opinion that trumps their's. Unlikely to get to court, but being prepared and showing that you have given them every opportunity puts you on the front foot. Of course you may decide it is not worth the hassle and just pay for the things to be fixed. I took this decision over a defect with Volvo. Technically I would likely have won, but the cost and hassle were just too great.

Hope you get it sorted and have many years' pleasure out of the boat.
 
[
Cloud 5 said:
I have issue with my year old boat , which to me should be simple as abc.

1: Rust on Engine Mounts. Dealer response ‘ you need to talk to engine manufacturers , then engine manufacturers response we did not supply mounts.’
2: Batteries falling flat. Dealer response ‘ you need proof of this ‘. Vouching report from boat yard batteries flat ‘
3: cabin door off level. Dealer response ‘ it’s only cosmetic ‘
4: other minor items Dealer response. ‘ it’s a new boat you have to expect these things ‘

Is this type of carry on the normal , it’s like taking a new car back to garage and being told we did not manufacture the engine .

Thanks
Click to expand...
Regarding point 1. There should be a simple black and white answer to this. But who is it. Is the dealer the seller ?. Are the builders selling to the dealer or you ?
How does it work and who really is liable ?.
Steveeasy
 
I suspect I’ve guessed the brand given the reference to Naviops above, which is interesting because I was all set on buying a boat from them until the 11th hour. They certainly offered a very attractive deal (essentially a bigger boat than I ended up buying, but at a cheaper price)

But just by way of balance, I had a very good buying experience 3 years ago. Nothing was too much trouble and I couldn’t fault the dealer I ended up with. I only had a few issues and all were sorted. Sod’s law I’ve now had a few new issues and of course am out of warranty :( but nothing major and the after sales manager is very knowledgable and willing to offer advice and talk things through. The handover was almost an entire day (on a relatively simple 40’). The dealer has quite a large team, including brokerage, and they are all friendly and helpful and nothing is too much trouble.
 
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