New awb's.

[dunedin]

I actually like the look of the boat and think (like many others) would be more than satisfied with its performance and general "quality" but not at its original price. The problem with buying this boat even at the depressed asking price is that it is effectively a one off and a failure in the market. The difficulty of selling it now is unlikely to change in the future. This has happened to many similar boats in the past, although often epoxy wood or steel rather than GRP.

If you are prepared to take the risk of difficulty in selling and take the long view it could be a good buy.

Re the GT35 agree entirely. It had a very reputable designer, so should sail very well and look after its occupants, and looking at it at SIBS it had a lot of well thought out details. The interior was also practical - and a nice picture on the bulkhead and a couple of other personalisations would make it attractive place to be.
A good boat - albeit one that was never was going to make economic sense to try to start building from scratch.

A real bargain for somebody, as you say, who is prepared to take a long term view.

 

[Aja]

Re the GT35 agree entirely. It had a very reputable designer, so should sail very well and look after its occupants, and looking at it at SIBS it had a lot of well thought out details. The interior was also practical - and a nice picture on the bulkhead and a couple of other personalisations would make it attractive place to be.
A good boat - albeit one that was never was going to make economic sense to try to start building from scratch.

A real bargain for somebody, as you say, who is prepared to take a long term view.

But going back to the OPs query, the GT35 is not and never will be a AWB on it's sales history. I don't understand the fixation with a boat that has not captured the imagination of the buying public, which I suspect is one of the pre-conditions of a AWB.

Donald

 

[JumbleDuck]

It is more than the visual finish down below - which from the photos is very similar to Bavaria, but in the design and construction of the rest of the boat which is "better" than mass produced boats - but not twice as good.

It might be, but I wouldn't take that for granted. I suspect that Bavaria spend a lot more with Judel and Vrolijk for a new design than GT did with Rob Humphreys, and when it comes to construction, blokes running around with buckets of resin really can't come close to modern mass production.

 

[JumbleDuck]

But going back to the OPs query, the GT35 is not and never will be a AWB on it's sales history. I don't understand the fixation with a boat that has not captured the imagination of the buying public, which I suspect is one of the pre-conditions of a AWB.

I think the GT35 is interesting because it put to rest the fantasy that "if only they made proper old-fashioned (in this case 1990s) boats to a high standard, people would flock to buy them." It never really seemed likely and now we know for sure: hand building a traditional design in small numbers is inordinately expensive and even with 50% off nobody wants to buy.

 

[boatboat]

It might be, but I wouldn't take that for granted. I suspect that Bavaria spend a lot more with Judel and Vrolijk for a new design than GT did with Rob Humphreys, and when it comes to construction, blokes running around with buckets of resin really can't come close to modern mass production.

It's about best practice rather than mass production. The two are not the same thing at all.

A little research reveals the GT35 is built in a similar way to the likes of Oyster, Gunfleet. Resin infused hull and deck with solid laminate below the waterline, lead keel attached to a massive stub which is part of the hull mould, bulkheads bonded and laminated to hull and deck, carbon reinforcements, good ballast ratio, quality resins, oversized chainplates, substantial rudder stock, jefa steering etc.

Stability.. AVS 144, STIX 54 is almost unheard of for a modern 35 footer.

Gut feeling why it hasnt sold: They made a mistake with the size. People nowadays view 35 feet in the same way they viewed 25 feet in years gone by. Had they brought out a 45 footer, they could have marketed it as a long distance global girdler and perhaps found a few buyers prepared to pay big £££.

 

[Frogmogman]

It might be, but I wouldn't take that for granted. I suspect that Bavaria spend a lot more with Judel and Vrolijk for a new design than GT did with Rob Humphreys,

Well that's not hard.

I suspect that GT spent precisely no time with Rob Humphreys as it was designed by Stephen Jones.

 

[roblpm]

It's about best practice rather than mass production. The two are not the same thing at all.

A little research reveals the GT35 is built in a similar way to the likes of Oyster, Gunfleet. Resin infused hull and deck with solid laminate below the waterline, lead keel attached to a massive stub which is part of the hull mould, bulkheads bonded and laminated to hull and deck, carbon reinforcements, good ballast ratio, quality resins, oversized chainplates, substantial rudder stock, jefa steering etc.

Stability.. AVS 144, STIX 54 is almost unheard of for a modern 35 footer.

Gut feeling why it hasnt sold: They made a mistake with the size. People nowadays view 35 feet in the same way they viewed 25 feet in years gone by. Had they brought out a 45 footer, they could have marketed it as a long distance global girdler and perhaps found a few buyers prepared to pay big £££.

I will buy it when ot hits 50k!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Well that's not hard.

I suspect that GT spent precisely no time with Rob Humphreys as it was designed by Stephen Jones.

Bugger.

 

[JumbleDuck]

It's about best practice rather than mass production. The two are not the same thing at all.

A little research reveals the GT35 is built in a similar way to the likes of Oyster, Gunfleet. Resin infused hull and deck with solid laminate below the waterline, lead keel attached to a massive stub which is part of the hull mould, bulkheads bonded and laminated to hull and deck, carbon reinforcements, good ballast ratio, quality resins, oversized chainplates, substantial rudder stock, jefa steering etc.

The building side of that is really just what you have to do when you don't have the benefits of mass production or a good CNC system. Good design and modern production methods can achieve the same strength at a fraction of the cost. Why used oversized chainplates when you could use correctly sized ones? Bavaria use Jefa steering too: http://www.jefa.com/News/bavaria_37_41/bavaria_37.htm

 

[boatboat]

The building side of that is really just what you have to do when you don't have the benefits of mass production or a good CNC system. Good design and modern production methods can achieve the same strength at a fraction of the cost. Why used oversized chainplates when you could use correctly sized ones? Bavaria use Jefa steering too: http://www.jefa.com/News/bavaria_37_41/bavaria_37.htm

You said it was blokes running around with buckets of resin.

Turns out it was built to a very high spec, using more modern techniques and materials than the mass production boats.

Mass production can be high quality or cheap tat. The concept in itself doesn't guarantee one or the other.

From the Windboats website:
"Our production design offices use the latest design and CAD programmes and software. Our woodworking machine shop uses modern machines and has one of the largest and most versatile CNC machines in use by any boatbuilder".

 

[lpdsn]

From the Windboats website:
"Our production design offices use the latest design and CAD programmes and software. Our woodworking machine shop uses modern machines and has one of the largest and most versatile CNC machines in use by any boatbuilder".

All very nice sounding words but not the sort of thing you could hold anyone too. You certainly couldn't use it as evidence that they were using more modern techniques and materials than the mass production boats. I'm sure the boat was pretty well built but of course remember that she was the first boat so there's always that hint of a question mark. I'm sure they themselves identified many points for improvement in subsequent builds. Still any idea that the boat wasn't well-engineered or built are very much unsubstantiated. The failure was in marketing, particularly the chosen price point, and the cost of building the boat.

Remember even a builder as big as Bavaria have had failures when trying to go outside their comfort zone. In their case the Bavaria Match range, which for all their teething problems were actually quite good boats. Just the very public, and fatal, failure of one tainted the range so much they were withdrawn. They suffer the same issue as the GT35 that those that exist don't sell very well.

 

[Tranona]

Bugger.

And Bavarias are designed by Bruce Farr - so double B......

While Farr Design will have spent a lot of time engineering the boats for mass production Jones will have done it all by hand except possibly running it through a computer to generate the RCD stats. He did however have the advantage of a successful design (Starlight 35) as a base to work from.

 

[Tranona]

You said it was blokes running around with buckets of resin.

Turns out it was built to a very high spec, using more modern techniques and materials than the mass production boats.

Mass production can be high quality or cheap tat. The concept in itself doesn't guarantee one or the other.

From the Windboats website:
"Our production design offices use the latest design and CAD programmes and software. Our woodworking machine shop uses modern machines and has one of the largest and most versatile CNC machines in use by any boatbuilder".

Well, Bavaria now have resin infused hulls - unfortunately introduced just after my boat was built and the CNC cut woodwork is every bit as well fitted if simpler. That is the problem for the small volume builders, even when they move to modern production methods to cut cost and improve quality the mass producers close the gap.

 

[boatboat]

All very nice sounding words but not the sort of thing you could hold anyone too. You certainly couldn't use it as evidence that they were using more modern techniques and materials than the mass production boats. I'm sure the boat was pretty well built but of course remember that she was the first boat so there's always that hint of a question mark. I'm sure they themselves identified many points for improvement in subsequent builds. Still any idea that the boat wasn't well-engineered or built are very much unsubstantiated. The failure was in marketing, particularly the chosen price point, and the cost of building the boat.

Remember even a builder as big as Bavaria have had failures when trying to go outside their comfort zone. In their case the Bavaria Match range, which for all their teething problems were actually quite good boats. Just the very public, and fatal, failure of one tainted the range so much they were withdrawn. They suffer the same issue as the GT35 that those that exist don't sell very well.

With the more modern techniques and materials I'm referring also to things like vinylester resin infusion and carbon reinforcements. AFAIK the big production yards are yet to adopt these practices... although no doubt they have their own highly optimised workflows which speed up construction.

But actually I agree.. there's no point building a high quality product if no one's going to buy it. Not arguing with the price issue. Perhaps if they'd kicked off with a GT45 it would have been different.

 

[lw395]

With the more modern techniques and materials I'm referring also to things like vinylester resin infusion and carbon reinforcements. AFAIK the big production yards are yet to adopt these practices... although no doubt they have their own highly optimised workflows which speed up construction.

But actually I agree.. there's no point building a high quality product if no one's going to buy it. Not arguing with the price issue. Perhaps if they'd kicked off with a GT45 it would have been different.

Things like resin infusion and carbon reinforcement only really add value when you want to build to minimum weight. Designing out 50kg of materials from a 35ft boat might add value for racing, or save money on a long production run, but probably doesn't add any value to the cruising owner.

It would be interesting to see a costed bill of materials for a modern yacht.
I doubt the glass and resin for a 35ft boat are much more than £5k.

 

[JumbleDuck]

You said it was blokes running around with buckets of resin.

Turns out it was built to a very high spec, using more modern techniques and materials than the mass production boats.

Perhaps, but I haven't seen any evidence for that.

Mass production can be high quality or cheap tat. The concept in itself doesn't guarantee one or the other.

Of course. But what it can do in all cases is build to a given quality point cheaper than hand-building. A GT35 built by Bavaria might cost more than a Bavaria 35, but it would cost a heck of a lot less than GT wanted.

From the Windboats website:
"Our production design offices use the latest design and CAD programmes and software. Our woodworking machine shop uses modern machines and has one of the largest and most versatile CNC machines in use by any boatbuilder".

Suggested translation: "We have a copy of AutoCad. Please don't ask us how we do the GRP layup."

 

[doug748]

It might be, but I wouldn't take that for granted. I suspect that Bavaria spend a lot more with Judel and Vrolijk for a new design than GT did with Rob Humphreys, and when it comes to construction, blokes running around with buckets of resin really can't come close to modern mass production.

Suggested translation:

" I have lots of ideas but am far too clever to trouble about facts"

:tears_of_joy:

 

[boatboat]

There's nothing controversial about what I've said. Dozens of small yards around Europe use advanced materials and build techniques. It's not a secret. Certain high modulus composites have superior mechanical properties to others. Using a vacuum to optimise fibre to resin ratios can result in a stronger and lighter laminate.

I'm not knocking the production yards. Jeanneau, Beneteau, Hanse, Dufour etc mainly use hand layup for their hulls. Then they bond in hull liners. It's absolutely fit for purpose. Nothing wrong with using these traditional techniques. It works.

However, the more I read up on the GT35 the more impressive I see the thinking that has gone into it is. The keel for example: http://www.gtyachts.com/jan2015news.php

 

[JumbleDuck]

There's nothing controversial about what I've said. Dozens of small yards around Europe use advanced materials and build techniques.

Of course. But there are "advanced build techniques" which are good for small production runs and one-offs and there are "advanced build techniques" which are good for series production. The former aren't necessarily better, though people spending a lot of money on artisan products always like to think that's the case.

 

[Tranona]

With the more modern techniques and materials I'm referring also to things like vinylester resin infusion and carbon reinforcements. AFAIK the big production yards are yet to adopt these practices... although no doubt they have their own highly optimised workflows which speed up construction.

Not so. As I said earlier, Bavaria have been using resin infusion for a couple of years - saves about 250kg on a 34 hull. Equally Kevlar has been used for many years as reinforcement on both Bavaria and Jeanneau (and probably others) for many years. Also used by Hanse and Bavaria to reinforce and transfer chain plate loads on the designs that use hull mounted chain plates.