New awb's.

[steve yates]

Went to my first boat show today, and we went onboard various boats for a look see, as jo sees the longbow as an interim boat and wants a bigger one for the med etc. Or thought she did
She fell in love with swallow boats bayraider 26!

But that by the by, we looked at the grand soliel, Bavaria 46, benetau oceanis 35,38 and 42 ( or closest sizes)
, dealer 34 and a big Hanse.
Have to say, we were shocked by the cheap materials and plasticky feel and finish to them. No way would I spend quarter of a million on something like this. Apart from width, boat interior hasn't actually moved on that much in the 40 years since our old longbow was built. The dehler actually had the same cheap faux mahogany melamine bulkheads as the longbow! But at least the longbow had a lot of solid wood and teak inside her,
Lack of storage and design features that seemed to forget the boat might sail, or get wet! No fiddles on tables, no wet lockers.

The Hanse was the best of that lot, but the only boats that actually impressed us, and certainly the only ones that made us think we might be getting any value for our money were the Swallow and the Cornish crabber. Maybe Brit builders should go into the 40ft market again?

Anyway, we won't be getting any of them in the future, that's for sure.

 

[wully1]

Have to say, we were shocked by the cheap materials and plasticky feel and finish to them.

Sadly that’s what is on offer and what folk buy. Beats me why people will fork out a lot of money for cheap and nasty finished, flimsy, cost driven , designer things...
I was horrified by the finish on Jan & Bav boats last time I went to a boat show - if that’s what they are happy to show for a premier boat show ( so obviously not London then! )I dread to think what yer normal punter ends up with.

 

[Spyro]

Been a couple of times to the show and felt the same, 3 years ago we thought the American legends were the best quality of production boats and 2 years ago thought the latest Bavarias were the best of the bunch. We chartered a fairly new Hanse in Croatia last year and although the boat sailed really well, the engine was great the quality of internals was shocking. Cheap plasticky wood with sharp jaggy edges. The worse part was the drawers that fell out when heeled and dented the floor. The cushions in the saloon with a heavy wooden backing also slid off when heeled and dented one of the plastic wall panels opposite.

 

[johnalison]

I've never had a Dehler, or even sailed on one, but I actually admire them for getting away from the pseudo-trad look that was universal until a few years ago. I haven't been on one for a while, but light weight doesn't have to go with a cheap look, as the old Sweden Yachts craft showed.

 

[pvb]

Anyway, we won't be getting any of them in the future, that's for sure.

If you were seriously in the market for a new AWB, I'm sure you'd find something to suit. Modern boats are certainly different in style inside from older boats, but generally they're very practical, very safe, work well, are easy to manage, and (despite what you might think) are pretty solidly built.

 

[Frogmogman]

If you were seriously in the market for a new AWB, I'm sure you'd find something to suit. Modern boats are certainly different in style inside from older boats, but generally they're very practical, very safe, work well, are easy to manage, and (despite what you might think) are pretty solidly built.

Quite so.

If I may quote one of Tranona's posts on the Viko 35 thread "just ask the charter operators who use them. Boats that do more miles in a year with a different crew each week than many private boats do in a lifetime."

 

[JumbleDuck]

Quite so.

If I may quote one of Tranona's posts on the Viko 35 thread "just ask the charter operators who use them. Boats that do more miles in a year with a different crew each week than many private boats do in a lifetime."

I'd be interested to see some figures to support that. Doesn't the average charter boat do six ten miles hops, half of them under engine, every week?

 

[Frogmogman]

At the end of the day, it's a case of each to his own of course.

The 1972 S&S Swan 43 which I have the good fortune to race on is achingly gorgeous to look at, and when in the groove, she sails beautifully, with a lovely comfortable motion.

And yet.....she is impractical, tricky to manoeuvre in port, difficult to sail short handed, and rather like the black hole of Calcutta below decks. I've resisted being strong armed into the syndicate on several occasions. It's all just too high maintenance for me.

 

[ashtead]

Sadly the choice in new boats in the 35 to say 40 or so foot range is quite limited particularly if some makes such as HR , Arcona, XC and Dutch built onesare out of budget . Position isn't helped by weak £ compared to a couple of years ago however many boats in the Mass market are probably now aimed at Med charter market as opposed to traditional U.K. Yacht market . Even Bav over recent years has moved away from the dark wood of the 2000 to the light colours now employed but if you are looking for darker finish I am sure some are still out there if you search. The Moody is still produced with dark gloss wood but most now opt for lighter trek colour which no doubt reflects changing tastes.

 

[steve yates]

It's not wood though, is it

 

[Tranona]

I'd be interested to see some figures to support that. Doesn't the average charter boat do six ten miles hops, half of them under engine, every week?

Sweeping generalisation. There are many different types of charter activity, some more demanding on the boat than others, or more particularly demanding on different aspects of the boat. Just think of the wear and tear on engines and windlasses from mooring and anchoring 2 or 3 times, a day, 6 days a week 20 weeks a year in the Med. Then think of the wear and tear on the domestic side - electrics, cooking, fridge, water system, loos, upholstery etc of 6-10 people on board for that period. eating, sleeping using it as a bathing platform and sunbed.

Then look at a typical UK based boat doing similar hours in all weathers (because the punters have paid), again usually with full crews, using every bit of kit to get maximum value out of their charter fee.

With a well run operation this is in many ways good for the boat because maintenance is not skimped and engines in particularly like the regular and high usage. The reason AWBs are popular is that they are robust and relatively simple compared with the premium boats, so need little fixing and when they do it is usually easy because of good access and the use of mainstream parts from major suppliers.

 

[prv]

Doesn't the average charter boat do six ten miles hops, half of them under engine, every week?

And how many privately-owned boats do 60 miles a week, week in week out?

I'm sure a handful do, but those of us who have to work for a living and who also have some kind of life apart from sailing, do nothing like that on average.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

It's not wood though, is it

That varies according to the brand. The trend to light colours, synthetic finishes and open layouts just reflects changing tastes amongst the buyers. You only have to look at home improvement shows on TV to see where it comes from. Wind back to the 60s and you will see the same in the early GRP boats before builders realised that buyers at the time (those who could afford it) tended to still be in the "Tudorbethan" phase so they went back to filling the GRP hull with dark wood. Given that style lasted for about 40 years it is the one that dominates sailors' minds because they mostly own boats in that style so it is considered the norm.

My first Bavaria (2001) was built at the peak of dark wood period and very nice it was too. Fielded panel locker doors, all solid Sapele trim and ply panels plus dark blue upholstery. However, my new one is very different. Same solid wood trim but much simpler detailing and perfectly CNC machined sections and light mahogany panels. I chose mahogany, but options were teak or oak. With white deckhead and hull lining plus larger windows and more hatches it is light and airy. much nicer place to be than the old gloomy interior, even if that was good for its type.

Getting boat interiors "right" is very difficult as it is the thing that sells the boat, particularly to couples. While the design and performance of the boat is important, in some ways this is a given. They all sail well and are easy to handle, although of course some are capable of better performance or more suitable for different types of usage. In reality, though, most buyers of new boats are experienced people and have sussed out what sort of performance they want and what each different model can provide so that is sorted before the boat goes on the short list. The differentiator is generally the interior, layout, practicality for living on, feel and look.

The use of new materials and finishes is inevitable as natural materials, particularly good quality wood becomes more expensive both to buy and work. Some are better than others, but there is no doubting the level of acceptance in principle by buyers.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Sweeping generalisation. There are many different types of charter activity...

Of course. Which is why some figures would be nice.

And how many privately-owned boats do 60 miles a week, week in week out?

Not many, but is it enough to cause any reasonably designed boat issues? As Tranona wrote, it seems likely that most wear would be related to person-days, rather than miles.

 

[dunedin]

Sadly the choice in new boats in the 35 to say 40 or so foot range is quite limited particularly if some makes such as HR , Arcona, XC and Dutch built onesare out of budget . Position isn't helped by weak £ compared to a couple of years ago

Let me reword that slightly ... if the mass market AWBs don’t appeal, then need to look at boats like HR, Arcona, XC and some Dutch built ones like Sare (or Discovery etc in bigger sizes). But the prices go up a lot (as are Cornish Crabber etc relative to similar sized AWBs).

Just like cars - a Skoda Octavia is a great well built car that does everything you need. Many pay more to have the same car with slightly better plastics and more expensive options (Golf, or Audi A4), other pay even more for bigger and more expensive BMWs, Mercedes, Range Rover. Costs three times as much and does the same job - but in a nicer environment, in return for shedding a lot more cash.

If you have the money, you makes your choice. If you don’t you see what your cash buys on Autotrader - or Apollo Duck.

 

[Uricanejack]

I was at Earls court for the boat show just over 30 years ago. Saw some boats I like.
I think I might just about be able to afford one of them now.

 

[Skylark]

No way would I spend quarter of a million on something like this.

It must be really hard work for the sales people; being polite and courteous to tyre kickers who can’t afford to buy their products, just look around in secret envy and walk away with nothing but criticism ?

I bought my 41 footer 4 years ago now and still have the smile on my face. For the two of us it is extremely roomy, well appointed and comfortable. It has some really nice features, well thought out by the designers. It’s easy to sail short handed, very responsive, a delight to sail. It’s very manoeuvrable in ahead and astern. The space in the cockpit and especially with the electrically controlled drop-down transom is huge and is great for entertaining.

My sailing started with an 18ft trailer-sailer. I’ve also had a cramped 30ft long keeler but always had the intention to work hard and save my pennies to buy into the brand new boat lifestyle.

I (probably) could have bought a similar sized boat from a perceived more upmarket brand but for our recreational sailing intents the Beneteau represented very good value for money, imho.

Looking at the AWB manufactures’ statistics, I’m not alone with this thinking.

 

[steve yates]

Funny that, we went aboard one of the big motor boats, which cost a lot more, and had nothing but praise and admiration for it. Because it was beautifully designed, and the materials and finish were excellent.
My point was this, westerly' were production boats in their day, they may look dated and cramped now, but they still do not look cheap.
And we weren't tyre kickers, tho not in the market right now. In 5 years we could certainly afford one, but we wouldn't buy one. Big difference. We need to look elsewhere.
As an aside, I thing £250k is a lot of money for a 40ft boat, so I would expect value for it. It wasn't there, imo.
I reckon I Could buy an older boat, have it gutted and refitted to my design by a cabinet maker with decent materials, and still buy 3 £40k flats and go sailing on the rental yield
We had an interesting conversation with one salesman who asked for an honest opinion, and got it. On why interior design had stayed so static on sailing boats, and he reckoned it was the demographic of the market.
But I think you nailed it when you said buy into the brand new boat lifestyle, they do appear to be designed for a lifestyle, only sailing in good weather, from an interior POV.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Funny that, we went aboard one of the big motor boats, which cost a lot more, and had nothing but praise and admiration for it. Because it was beautifully designed, and the materials and finish were excellent.
My point was this, westerly' were production boats in their day, they may look dated and cramped now, but they still do not look cheap.
And we weren't tyre kickers, tho not in the market right now. In 5 years we could certainly afford one, but we wouldn't buy one. Big difference. We need to look elsewhere.
As an aside, I thing £250k is a lot of money for a 40ft boat, so I would expect value for it. It wasn't there, imo.
I reckon I Could buy an older boat, have it gutted and refitted to my design by a cabinet maker with decent materials, and still buy 3 £40k flats and go sailing on the rental yield
We had an interesting conversation with one salesman who asked for an honest opinion, and got it. On why interior design had stayed so static on sailing boats, and he reckoned it was the demographic of the market.
But I think you nailed it when you said buy into the brand new boat lifestyle, they do appear to be designed for a lifestyle, only sailing in good weather, from an interior POV.

£40k flats mmm please send me the info , I have a few dozen .
I am one who had brought a new 12 mts boat and ended up selling it to buy a much older one ,
not because it didn't sail well or because of the way it was made but because we like the older style yacht .

 

[wully1]

Been a couple of times to the show and felt the same, 3 years ago we thought the American legends were the best quality of production boats and 2 years ago thought the latest Bavarias were the best of the bunch. We chartered a fairly new Hanse in Croatia last year and although the boat sailed really well, the engine was great the quality of internals was shocking. Cheap plasticky wood with sharp jaggy edges.

Last Time I had a good look I thought the Bavaria’s were the best built with very few sloppy finished bits but I hate the twin wheel style thing which seems to me just to be a way to fill in all that space the fat arse boats have..

The best boat for me at that show was the Furby.. Biggest disappointment was the Amel 55.