New anchor

[pessimist]

I hardly dare post this, but here we go. We have a cat which came with a CQR. We have previous experience of these on previous boats and have never been entirely comfortable overnight or leaving the boat unattended. We are, therefore, looking for a new anchor. We are somewhat constrained by the design of our foredeck. We have no bow roller - instead the anchor and rode disappears through an 'ole in the deck.
The dimensions of said 'ole are 24cm x 10cm x 5cm (photos below). We taken by the Kobra, partly because it looks as though it would fit the afore mentioned 'ole and partly because the price seems reasonable.
Couple of questions -
1. Do people think that the Kobra would fit?
2. Any better suggestions? (dives for cover)

Sorry, uploading pictures seems to be verboten. One is 179kB one is 92kB. I presume there is a size limit, anybody any idea what it is? Both produce the incredibly helpful message "something went wrong" No shit!

Finally - it let me upload pics.

 

[Scillypete]

Are the dimensions correct? Your anchor goes through a hole about 10” by 4” by 2”
That’s a small anchor ?

 

[pessimist]

Are the dimensions correct? Your anchor goes through a hole about 10” by 4” by 2”
That’s a small anchor ?

Only the shaft comes through the 'ole. The business end stays below the foredeck - makes attaching a bridle fun too.

 

[jordanbasset]

I assume you are thinking around a 10-12 kg anchor, from the memory of my Kobra 2 it should fit and I think you will get a very good anchor for not a lot of money.

 

[andsarkit]

Have sent you a pm.

 

[Scillypete]

Only the shaft comes through the 'ole. The business end stays below the foredeck - makes attaching a bridle fun too.

that and the addition of the pictures now makes sense. That ole will limit the options but you’ve asked in the right place you’ll get thousands of answers ??

 

[lustyd]

Have you tried tying a bit of wool to the CQR? That'll hold the cat almost indefinitely

 

[Jamie Dundee]

The problem you might have is that the Kobra has a very rounded shaft, unlike the CQR. I replaced the OE Britany (also straight shaft) on my boat with a Kobra, had to make modifications to the bow roller to keep the pointy bit off the hull. Looking at your set up you might struggle.

 

[Boathook]

Could look at a vulcan that doesn't have the hoop like the rocna. Another option is the new lewmar epsilon. Basically you are after something with a same shank as the cqr. A few manufactures have a template that you can print out, stick on thick card or even ply and cut to shape and see how it fits. Another option for you is to anchor of Beer and visit Jimmy Green Marine and physicaly try anchors. This assume that they have good stock of your size.

 

[Neeves]

Your bow roller arrangement is almost identical to ours. Our cat came with a Manson Plough as standard, it offered the same security as your CQR (maybe less). The hole forward of the roller itself only needs to be big enough to take the shank at the crown, or above the crown, as the fluke hangs down underneath. You will find the anchor will rock on the bow roller but you can reduce that by pulling the shank so the fluke is hard against the roller (and/or lashing it).

A Bruce, Vulcan, Kobra, Excel, Spade and Epsion will fit in the slot it then comes down to the size of the anchor, or the size of the anchor at the crown. You obviously will not be able to fit any roll bar anchor (but that limitation is in your favour) nor a Fortress/Danforth (you would need to deploy them by hand). I would stick with modern anchors, but if you are on an economy drive you should be able to source a cheap genuine Bruce off ebay. I have never tested a Vulcan nor Epsilon (have not even seen an Epsilon). I can warrant Spade and Excel but again if you on a budget both these 2 anchors will have scary prices and the Kobra will be more than adequate. I have tested the Kobra - its a good anchor and some members use a Kobra and none have complained. I was not happy with the folding arrangement on ours - and had it welded up.

I would recommend you carry a spare anchor, people do lose anchors, and if you find the cat yaws at anchor being able to set 2 anchors in a 'V' plus your bridle will dampen the movement. You then need a spare rode - but it can be mostly ropes, ours is 15m of 6mm and 40mm of 12mm 3 ply.

We engage and disengage our bridle through the slot. before the anchor arrives (or when it is deployed) and there is plenty of room to put your hand into the slot and manipulate the 'hook'. We then pull the bridle up through the slot and attach it to the 'cage' of the headsail furler. The biggest problem, that maybe has not occurred to you yet - there is not much room to wash the chain nor anchor - you need a hose with a decent nozzle.

This our arrangement for the anchor and bow roller. This is an Aluminium Anchor Right Excel, No 4. It weighs 8kg and is the same size as the steel No 4 Excel at 15kg. You can see the bridle plate and bridle poking up through the slot. I'll measure the size of the shank at the crown later this morning (note I am in the Lucky Country) and either add to this post or have a new post.


The windlass and chain locker are about 0.5m aft of the hawse pipe in the deck


If you buy or have access to Multihulls there is an article in the Special July edition on bridles. If you send me an email address by PM I can send you some pdfs on bridles. There is also an article on snubbers and bridle in the July issue of YM, but it is more mono hull focussed - as we multihull owners are a very select, largely polite and discerning breed.

If I can help in any other way but you fear the temper tantrums, jealousy and intransigence of the minority - simply pen a PM and I'll answer as fulsome as I can. I have regular correspondence with YBW members by PM or email, none of us like some of the nastiness that develops, sometimes.

The information missing from your epening post is the size, beam, length and weight of your cat. Ours is 22' 6", 38", draws 3"3" and weighs fully laden with a crew of 2 at around 7t. Our rode is 75m of 6mm high tensile chain. Our bridle is 30m long - don't be scared by the length- send me your email and it will all be explained. (I do love the idea that we have all been metric for decades but the size of yachts is largely in feet and inches . )

I'll measure the crown/shank size of both the Spade and Excel later today - it will be ready for you when you check YBW tomorrow morning. If you think about it the shank arrives at the bow roller vertically and its only the crown when the shank tends to the horizontal - its not the big issue you, seem to, fear.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

The Excel crown is 130mm wide where it joins the fluke, the Spade is 110mm. So the space between the front edge of the roller and the front edge of the slot needs to be bigger than these dimension if you want to use an Excel No 4 or a Spade S 80. You seem to have measured the total slot - rather than the size between roller and slot. I don't have a Kobra of the size you will possibly need - but its shank is less wide that that of either Spade or Excel. Most anchor shanks are designed round a Delta shank (including Spade) and the dimension are actually very similar and similarly scaled, except for Bruce and Kobra. If there is a chance the anchor will 'hit' the front of your slot - attach a small piece of wood or rubber as a 'buffer'.

Our anchors are quite old - maybe 15 years, there may have been changes. I don't expect the changes to be large but if the dimensions are 'tight' I would check before committing well earned cash.

At sea you will want to immobilise the anchor,, stop it rocking in swell - or it will wear the roller. I have a cheap and easy fix for that - I need to find some images for you. You can make the immobiliser from an old (or new) chopping board. You also need to lash the anchor in case the windlass clutch slips - you can use the horn cleat forward of your windlass, but don't use the windlass. I'd also use that same horn cleat to act as a back-up to the bridle - good bridles are sacrificial. Our rope to secure the anchor is that green one and it has a simple hook from the lifting industry. These do not come galvanised so buy 2 (they are cheap) when one starts to look yucky replace with the new one and take the old one home, clean up and repaint.

This is our wobble plate. If you note our bow roller is 'contained' in a 'U' beam. The two outer slots allow the plate to be dropped onto the 'U' beam and the central slot retains the shank. Ours plate fits neatly between the roller and the back of the slot, the 2 shackles are for rope to stop me dropping it overboard. My plate is made from aluminium the original ones was made from a chopping board. The slots are a funny shape - because that is the profile of the 'U' beam, it has flanges welded on for the roller axle and the welds are a bit wide.






The bridle plate in the above picture, previous post, is an old model - new ones are better - you can make them yourself or buy from Viking Anchor - though I have not yet seen one - but they have posted one to me - its in the mail . .

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Sorry - but its me, again

Looking at your pictures (good thing you posted them) you have another constraint.

You need to consider the space needed when the shank is hard on the bow roller and the distance from the bow roller to where the shackle might be relative to the windlass.

Both the 15kg Spade and Excel will need 650mm, including the shackle. This is the distance from the forward 'edge' of the roller itself to allow the anchor to sit neatly. You could of course retrieve and then lift the shackle end of the shank up slightly if you needed a few more millimetres.

Jonathan

 

[pessimist]

Thanks, everyone for the replies plenty to think about. I'll answer each more fully later when I have access to a pc. Typing on a phone is no fun.

 

[pessimist]

Your bow roller arrangement is almost identical to ours. Our cat came with a Manson Plough as standard, it offered the same security as your CQR (maybe less). The hole forward of the roller itself only needs to be big enough to take the shank at the crown, or above the crown, as the fluke hangs down underneath. You will find the anchor will rock on the bow roller but you can reduce that by pulling the shank so the fluke is hard against the roller (and/or lashing it).

A Bruce, Vulcan, Kobra, Excel, Spade and Epsion will fit in the slot it then comes down to the size of the anchor, or the size of the anchor at the crown. You obviously will not be able to fit any roll bar anchor (but that limitation is in your favour) nor a Fortress/Danforth (you would need to deploy them by hand). I would stick with modern anchors, but if you are on an economy drive you should be able to source a cheap genuine Bruce off ebay. I have never tested a Vulcan nor Epsilon (have not even seen an Epsilon). I can warrant Spade and Excel but again if you on a budget both these 2 anchors will have scary prices and the Kobra will be more than adequate. I have tested the Kobra - its a good anchor and some members use a Kobra and none have complained. I was not happy with the folding arrangement on ours - and had it welded up.

I would recommend you carry a spare anchor, people do lose anchors, and if you find the cat yaws at anchor being able to set 2 anchors in a 'V' plus your bridle will dampen the movement. You then need a spare rode - but it can be mostly ropes, ours is 15m of 6mm and 40mm of 12mm 3 ply.

We engage and disengage our bridle through the slot. before the anchor arrives (or when it is deployed) and there is plenty of room to put your hand into the slot and manipulate the 'hook'. We then pull the bridle up through the slot and attach it to the 'cage' of the headsail furler. The biggest problem, that maybe has not occurred to you yet - there is not much room to wash the chain nor anchor - you need a hose with a decent nozzle.

This our arrangement for the anchor and bow roller. This is an Aluminium Anchor Right Excel, No 4. It weighs 8kg and is the same size as the steel No 4 Excel at 15kg. You can see the bridle plate and bridle poking up through the slot. I'll measure the size of the shank at the crown later this morning (note I am in the Lucky Country) and either add to this post or have a new post.
View attachment 120042

The windlass and chain locker are about 0.5m aft of the hawse pipe in the deck
View attachment 120043

If you buy or have access to Multihulls there is an article in the Special July edition on bridles. If you send me an email address by PM I can send you some pdfs on bridles. There is also an article on snubbers and bridle in the July issue of YM, but it is more mono hull focussed - as we multihull owners are a very select, largely polite and discerning breed.

If I can help in any other way but you fear the temper tantrums, jealousy and intransigence of the minority - simply pen a PM and I'll answer as fulsome as I can. I have regular correspondence with YBW members by PM or email, none of us like some of the nastiness that develops, sometimes.

The information missing from your epening post is the size, beam, length and weight of your cat. Ours is 22' 6", 38", draws 3"3" and weighs fully laden with a crew of 2 at around 7t. Our rode is 75m of 6mm high tensile chain. Our bridle is 30m long - don't be scared by the length- send me your email and it will all be explained. (I do love the idea that we have all been metric for decades but the size of yachts is largely in feet and inches . )

I'll measure the crown/shank size of both the Spade and Excel later today - it will be ready for you when you check YBW tomorrow morning. If you think about it the shank arrives at the bow roller vertically and its only the crown when the shank tends to the horizontal - its not the big issue you, seem to, fear.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

Good point about the washing of the chain and anchor - I hadn't considered that. We don't have a powered deck wash so something to consider.

Have dropped you a PM, any information on bridles would be very welcome - we're new to this cat business, our last boat was a fairly heavy displacement 41ft mono.
I'll post facts here but maybe ask for opinions by p.m. as I am aware that anchor threads can become a bit "feisty"

The cat's dimensions are 36ft x 16ft x 3.3ft. Design displacement is 4.7 tons, but I would guess probably at least 50% more allowing for design "optimism" and loading for cruising. Probably worth mentioning that we have the windage if a small block of flats.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[pessimist]

The Excel crown is 130mm wide where it joins the fluke, the Spade is 110mm. So the space between the front edge of the roller and the front edge of the slot needs to be bigger than these dimension if you want to use an Excel No 4 or a Spade S 80. You seem to have measured the total slot - rather than the size between roller and slot. I don't have a Kobra of the size you will possibly need - but its shank is less wide that that of either Spade or Excel. Most anchor shanks are designed round a Delta shank (including Spade) and the dimension are actually very similar and similarly scaled, except for Bruce and Kobra. If there is a chance the anchor will 'hit' the front of your slot - attach a small piece of wood or rubber as a 'buffer'.

Our anchors are quite old - maybe 15 years, there may have been changes. I don't expect the changes to be large but if the dimensions are 'tight' I would check before committing well earned cash.

At sea you will want to immobilise the anchor,, stop it rocking in swell - or it will wear the roller. I have a cheap and easy fix for that - I need to find some images for you. You can make the immobiliser from an old (or new) chopping board. You also need to lash the anchor in case the windlass clutch slips - you can use the horn cleat forward of your windlass, but don't use the windlass. I'd also use that same horn cleat to act as a back-up to the bridle - good bridles are sacrificial. Our rope to secure the anchor is that green one and it has a simple hook from the lifting industry. These do not come galvanised so buy 2 (they are cheap) when one starts to look yucky replace with the new one and take the old one home, clean up and repaint.

This is our wobble plate. If you note our bow roller is 'contained' in a 'U' beam. The two outer slots allow the plate to be dropped onto the 'U' beam and the central slot retains the shank. Ours plate fits neatly between the roller and the back of the slot, the 2 shackles are for rope to stop me dropping it overboard. My plate is made from aluminium the original ones was made from a chopping board. The slots are a funny shape - because that is the profile of the 'U' beam, it has flanges welded on for the roller axle and the welds are a bit wide.


View attachment 120045



The bridle plate in the above picture, previous post, is an old model - new ones are better - you can make them yourself or buy from Viking Anchor - though I have not yet seen one - but they have posted one to me - its in the mail . .

Jonathan

The measurement given was from the front edge of the slot to the roller - 24cm, so I guess I don't have a problem in that direction.
We are currently using the horn cleat in exactly the way you describe, so I guess we're getting something right.
I can see the point of your "wobble plate" but I'm not too sure how it could be adapted to work without the U beam. Maybe I could replace it with a couple of wedges?
I'll have a look at bridle plates - see if there is anything available in the U.K.

 

[pessimist]

Sorry - but its me, again

Looking at your pictures (good thing you posted them) you have another constraint.

You need to consider the space needed when the shank is hard on the bow roller and the distance from the bow roller to where the shackle might be relative to the windlass.

Both the 15kg Spade and Excel will need 650mm, including the shackle. This is the distance from the forward 'edge' of the roller itself to allow the anchor to sit neatly. You could of course retrieve and then lift the shackle end of the shank up slightly if you needed a few more millimetres.

Jonathan

Please don't apologise, any and all information is more than welcome.
I take your point about shank length. The length of the CQR is 68cm so I don't think I have a problem. The distance from the roller to the centre of the gypsy is 86cm and the gypsy is 13 cm in diameter, si just under 80cm to the "front" of the gypsy.
Thanks again,
Colin

 

[Neeves]

The measurement given was from the front edge of the slot to the roller - 24cm, so I guess I don't have a problem in that direction.
We are currently using the horn cleat in exactly the way you describe, so I guess we're getting something right.
I can see the point of your "wobble plate" but I'm not too sure how it could be adapted to work without the U beam. Maybe I could replace it with a couple of wedges?
I'll have a look at bridle plates - see if there is anything available in the U.K.

For a wobble plate, I have actually seen a couple of wedges attached to the inside of a slot - but this means drilling the slot to bolted them in. I try not to drill any unnecessary holes. Just have a plate like a big 'T' with a slot in the bottom of the upright of the 'T' to accept whatever size of shank you eventually buy.

Viking Anchor have a bridle plate, but I don't know what size of chain it fits. They are sending me one, I have only seen the pictures. They have stock of their anchors in Belgium (I think) and do mail order - try them. There are options to the plate - we started off simply using a conventional chain hook (which worked) the birdle plate worked better.

Jonathan