New America’s Cup Boat - why ?

[dunedin]

The new AC75 design concept has been announced
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/199667/Americas-Cup-AC75-boat-concept-revealed

But if aiming for a fully foiling boat, why would anybody want to drag around all the windage and drag of a large monohull? Surely for foiling a pair of ultra slim hulls is much more efficient.

Seems like a “worst of both” option?

 

[lpdsn]

The videos does make it look a bit like a drunk duck with its legs going everywhere.

 

[lw395]

Not sure the cats with beams and tramps are much more aerodynamic.
It will be interesting to see the detail of the rule.
Particularly what control surfaces are allowed.
I suspect these things could still be prone to going arse over apex when the rudder foil gets in the turbulence of a boat close ahead?

With a mono, there will be much less running from side to side for the staff, but heaving all that ballast keel out of the water? That looks like silly amounts of treadmill duty to me.

The big question, will a couple of these fit in Ben's shed in Portsmouth?

 

[lw395]

The videos does make it look a bit like a drunk duck with its legs going everywhere.

That's harsh.





But fair!

 

[adwuk]

The windward foil looks like a lethal weapon. Windward boat beware!

 

[lw395]

The windward foil looks like a lethal weapon. Windward boat beware!

I Want One Of Those then.
It will look damned silly on my laser though!

 

[Chris 249]

I don't think it's the worst of both worlds - it's the worst of all four worlds (cat, canter, mono, foiler) with potentially none of the good points of any of them.

Since foiling, canting and skiffing came along the sport has been getting smaller. Clearly the route of chasing performance at the expense of complexity and cost hasn't worked. In comparison, booming sports like cycling have very tight restrictions (a Tour de France bike is up to 40kmh slower than a streamlined recumbent bicycle) or just aim cheap gear at the leisure market like SUPping and kayaking.

We almost need to break away into two sports, just as cycling normally completely ignores streamlined recumbents, or longboard surfing almost ignores shortboarding. History, commercial and academic studies and the simple reality of what people are buying and sailing shows that we are currently putting way too much emphasis on hyperformance boats, and the sport is shrinking. In some areas, it's going into quite a steep nosedive by some measures, but rather than change course we just keep going faster down the wrong route.

 

[Ingwe]

I personally can't see how this is going to work, the big issue being the fact that those foils rotate in a circular motion so say you are foiling along at 30 knots and want to gybe you rotate the foil into the water, as it touches the water the flat part of T-foil is going to be facing almost straight forwards and so acting like a very large brake which even in the best case scenario is going to spin the boat out of control - yes in theory they may be able to have it so that the angle of attack of the T adjusts as you rotate it through the water to reduce the drag but if that system ever fails you probably need a new boat as it will just rip the foil off along with a big chunk of the side of the boat and whilst this is happening the hull is performing a cartwheel due to the sudden torsional load.

 

[dunedin]

Seems like will add huge costs to the programmes - binning all the previous hard & expensively won experience of the foiling cats, as well as of the conventional monos already dumped and irrelevant for these foiling monos.

I would not be surprised if a number of teams withdraw as just too expensive a rethink - although, a team with deep pockets will have an advantage that other teams have lost their advantage. Suspect will be 50/50 whether we see another Rita for Ben this cycle.

 

[BrendanS]

I personally can't see how this is going to work, the big issue being the fact that those foils rotate in a circular motion so say you are foiling along at 30 knots and want to gybe you rotate the foil into the water, as it touches the water the flat part of T-foil is going to be facing almost straight forwards and so acting like a very large brake which even in the best case scenario is going to spin the boat out of control - yes in theory they may be able to have it so that the angle of attack of the T adjusts as you rotate it through the water to reduce the drag but if that system ever fails you probably need a new boat as it will just rip the foil off along with a big chunk of the side of the boat and whilst this is happening the hull is performing a cartwheel due to the sudden torsional load.

I'd love to see the design for the 'hinges' on the hydrofoils. The loads on it will be immense.

 

[Keith 66]

The vid shows the crew grinding. Surely after the proven & winning advantage the cyclors gave they wont go back to grinders?

 

[flaming]

Seems like a “worst of both” option?

Agree with that.

I don't see a mono as a good foiling platform, and my fear is that we'll lose foiling tacks which will make the racing far less interesting as tacking will cost far too much.

I'm just not quite sure what this mono is supposed to gain over the multis. The only area that I think it looks better is the sheer scale.

 

[flaming]

The vid shows the crew grinding. Surely after the proven & winning advantage the cyclors gave they wont go back to grinders?

I suspect they'll write it out, as the general consensus was that it looked really stupid. We'll know more when they publish the rule.

 

[Robert Wilson]

Spoiler alert, spoiler alert.

I can't appreciate all this aerofoil stuff - because I like beautiful boats of traditional design. OK, so I was born two centuries ago and think of Fife boats et al as the epitome of power, grace and style.
And the challengers had to sail across oceans to the race venue - they were sailing boats, not aeroplanes

The recent Vendee Globe boats still have a little style, while incorporating some fairly radical engineering developments, but

taking this new development in design and build to a logical conclusion, before long racing boats will be foil and sails and nothing else.

Perhaps "The Auld Mug" should be melted down and re-crafted into a hollow tube with no lid?

Bah, HUMBUG.

Now where did my dummy go? :disgust:

 

[lw395]

Tacking will be an endurance test if they need to lift a ballast keel every time.

 

[Keith 66]

I suspect they'll write it out, as the general consensus was that it looked really stupid. We'll know more when they publish the rule.

It wasnt that long ago that someone did a big leap in rowing performance with the sliding rigger, guess what it was promptly banned. So yes stranger things have happened!

 

[Chris 249]

It seems to be that the more restrictive the gear restrictions, the more popular the sport. Froome's Tour de France bikes are about 40kmh slower than a streamlined recumbent bike, but the Tour is one of the world's great sporting events and cycling is a huge sport, arguably because restrictions mean that the gear is so easy to use.

Sure, cyclors may let a boat go faster - so what? Golf would go faster if the green was just a giant funnel leading to the hole. Archery would be more efficient if they used bazookas. Billiards would be more efficient if you could just use your hands instead of a cue. But the whole point of a sport is that you can't use the most efficient technology and methods. Given that, it makes sense to slow racing yachts down to, if it's going to make them more practical.

Looking at rowing from the other angle - in some areas it was the top spectator sport of all years ago, when much of the racing was in fatter, slower tubs. They took a big leap in rowing performance by moving to shells, and it all collapsed not long afterwards. Coincidence? Perhaps, but perhaps not.

 

[{151760}]

I think those huge, heavy, sharp windward foils hanging at head height will constrain any close-quarters manoeuvring, which for me is the essence of match racing. If all hydraulic power has to be produced by humans, then raising and lowering those ballasted foils will mean limited amounts of tacking because they won't be able to keep up enough hydraulic pressure. The cats ran out of hydro on occasions, these will be even more prone to it, so, again no tacking duels, another essential part of match racing that was missing last time.
I'm not against fast foiling racers at all, but they're not good for match racing. I'd like to see a series of short races in foiling boats followed by a race-off a la speedway, and the America's cup in boats better suited to the main purpose.

 

[lw395]

It seems to be that the more restrictive the gear restrictions, the more popular the sport. Froome's Tour de France bikes are about 40kmh slower than a streamlined recumbent bike, but the Tour is one of the world's great sporting events and cycling is a huge sport, arguably because restrictions mean that the gear is so easy to use.

Sure, cyclors may let a boat go faster - so what? Golf would go faster if the green was just a giant funnel leading to the hole. Archery would be more efficient if they used bazookas. Billiards would be more efficient if you could just use your hands instead of a cue. But the whole point of a sport is that you can't use the most efficient technology and methods. Given that, it makes sense to slow racing yachts down to, if it's going to make them more practical.

Looking at rowing from the other angle - in some areas it was the top spectator sport of all years ago, when much of the racing was in fatter, slower tubs. They took a big leap in rowing performance by moving to shells, and it all collapsed not long afterwards. Coincidence? Perhaps, but perhaps not.

The AC has got zilch to do with popularity. That is its niche.
J class and 12 metres were never mass market inclusive options.

 

[lw395]

I think those huge, heavy, sharp windward foils hanging at head height will constrain any close-quarters manoeuvring, which for me is the essence of match racing. If all hydraulic power has to be produced by humans, then raising and lowering those ballasted foils will mean limited amounts of tacking because they won't be able to keep up enough hydraulic pressure. The cats ran out of hydro on occasions, these will be even more prone to it, so, again no tacking duels, another essential part of match racing that was missing last time.
I'm not against fast foiling racers at all, but they're not good for match racing. I'd like to see a series of short races in foiling boats followed by a race-off a la speedway, and the America's cup in boats better suited to the main purpose.

Fast foiling boats could be fine. Match racing in Moths would be pretty good.
The AC seems to be prone to ill-conceived sets of rules. The issues with the cats are almost wholly about class rules which were framed for a non-foiling cat.
Remove or re-write those rules and you could have a foiling cat far superior to the last AC models.