Needles / Overly Cautious?

[Sailfree]

Slightly Fred drift but had a very recent hairy ride into the Gironde surfing down waves and only 2m under keel in 12 depth. Various reasons all understood but reminded me we sail for pleasure not to be macho.

Waited in Royan for updated navionics chip as old one (small memory) could not show whole picture.

 

[jimi]

Slightly Fred drift but had a very recent hairy ride into the Gironde surfing down waves and only 2m under keel in 12 depth. Various reasons all understood but reminded me we sail for pleasure not to be macho.

Waited in Royan for updated navionics chip as old one (small memory) could not show whole picture.

Was the depth reading OK? Or was turbulence distorting the reading? Must have been very scarey!!

 

[lw395]

I've just checked my old chart and I reckon you're right ,staying just in the white sector light on the needles seems to take you to the north of the SW Shingles Buoy. Not a good place to be, partic in crap weather as its essentially and extension of the Shingles.

On my chart, which to be fair is out of date, the white sector has SW Shingles on its north edge and Bridge on its south edge.
Bridge is a W cardinal, the deep water is W of it. Just not too far W of it!

 

[dom]

On my chart, which to be fair is out of date, the white sector has SW Shingles on its north edge and Bridge on its south edge.
Bridge is a W cardinal, the deep water is W of it. Just not too far W of it!

I've just checked it on my Navionics iPad App (updated Dec 2016) and using the straight edge of an a sheet of A4 paper, determine that the little dot at the bottom-of the Needles Lighthouse appears to travel through the purple flashing symbol at the bottom of the Bridge Cardinal!

Not sure such fine navigational technique would inspire confidence in the crew on a rough day :ambivalence:

 

[jimi]

I've just checked my chart which is about 20 years old and therefor closer in time to the incident in question. See below

 

[lw395]

That's not a chart, it's an etch-a-sketch picture.
It's all clear on a paper chart.
There is enough water for ocean-going ships.
I bet when we saw the QE2 go this way they were not just using an iphone.

 

[dom]

That's not a chart, it's an etch-a-sketch picture.
It's all clear on a paper chart.
There is enough water for ocean-going ships.
I bet when we saw the QE2 go this way they were not just using an iphone.

Indeed, you're right. I have a collection of old Admiralty charts on board and I'll take a couple of pics and email to you or jimi to post on here.

Even better, and subject to a potential family issue, I might sail out through the Needles tomorrow evening and back Monday night. Will follow the light and take a few pics as I go. If that trip transpires, the fat lady will have sung!

For we'll then know the final aria - 2017 version

 

[lw395]

Enjoy, but bear in mind the Shingles does move about a bit.
My third season of cruiser sailing, there was a permanently dry bit, complete with estate agent 'for sale sign'.
My first season of cruiser sailing, I sailed straight over it.
Mind how you go and don't blame me etc.

 

[dom]

Enjoy, but bear in mind the Shingles does move about a bit.
My third season of cruiser sailing, there was a permanently dry bit, complete with estate agent 'for sale sign'.
My first season of cruiser sailing, I sailed straight over it.
Mind how you go and don't blame me etc.

Yes it does seem to have the travel bug. Anchor in Totland/Alum Bay at springs one year and it's barely there; the next one thinks WTF I could build a house there!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-12829630

 

[jimi]

That's not a chart, it's an etch-a-sketch picture.
It's all clear on a paper chart.
There is enough water for ocean-going ships.
I bet when we saw the QE2 go this way they were not just using an iphone.

It actually is a chart, its from the CM93 charts vintage of c20 years ago just zoomed enough to show relevant area without all the detail;-) the scale is deceptive making the Needles Channel look a lot narrower than it really is, but it does highlight how large the Shingles and Dolphin banks are. As others have said the shingles and Dolphin Bank do move about a bit as well as growing and eroding. EG a few years ago I'm sure Dolphin bank was visible at HW.
I rather suspect the QE2 would'nt have cut inside the SW Shingles on its way up the Needles Channel.

On the accident we are discussing the boat was lost en route from Poole to the Solent. I would hazard a guess it was before it reached the Needles Channel, the tide was flooding at the time so it would be setting the boat onto the Dolphin/Shingles. We'd really need to see the chart as it was at the time of the accident to make a judgement on the Needles sector light and the margin it cleared the southern edge of the banks by. I know that I always headed for the Needles FW buoy first which is en route if heading from the South but tempting to cut the corner a bit if heading in from Poole.

 

[Daydream believer]

So for someone who does not know the area at all.
I have sailed single handed to the channel Islands each year for the past few years & sailed along the French coast to avoid the I O W . I do Bradwell, Boulogne, Dieppe, Le Havre, Cherbourge, St PP. all 24 hr ports & easy entry in rough weather. This because I am concerned about getting a berth at various locations & more importantly getting out past the Needles.

If I did go via south coast next year & i wanted to make Cherbourg the next stop what is the safe wind strength that one can get in & out of the Needles in a 31 ft boat. I am not worried about a bit of rough- the Alderney Race in F6 over tide can be hairy, as can Barfleur if one gets it wrong. Would one then do a detour around this "North Channel" & how much does it add to the trip
What is a recommended strategy for passing via the IOW ( No anchoring) to get a good trip coming along from the east coast. ( can do hops of 60+ miles quite easily SH) What i do not want is to arrive somewhere & have problems getting a berth when tired or having to pre book etc

 

[lw395]

Personally, if I felt it was too rough to be using the Needles Channel, I wouldn't be looking to cross to Cherbourg.
I don't go looking for strong winds.
They run the RTIR up to F6 with few issues.
To go to Cherbourg, unless starting from Lymington or Yarmouth, it's probably as quick to go East of the IoW anyway.

I would suggest avoiding Friday and Saturday nights, Cowes week and any other big events, you will have few problems finding a berth in the Solent.

 

[jac]

So for someone who does not know the area at all.
I have sailed single handed to the channel Islands each year for the past few years & sailed along the French coast to avoid the I O W . I do Bradwell, Boulogne, Dieppe, Le Havre, Cherbourge, St PP. all 24 hr ports & easy entry in rough weather. This because I am concerned about getting a berth at various locations & more importantly getting out past the Needles.

If I did go via south coast next year & i wanted to make Cherbourg the next stop what is the safe wind strength that one can get in & out of the Needles in a 31 ft boat. I am not worried about a bit of rough- the Alderney Race in F6 over tide can be hairy, as can Barfleur if one gets it wrong. Would one then do a detour around this "North Channel" & how much does it add to the trip
What is a recommended strategy for passing via the IOW ( No anchoring) to get a good trip coming along from the east coast. ( can do hops of 60+ miles quite easily SH) What i do not want is to arrive somewhere & have problems getting a berth when tired or having to pre book etc

You should generally have no problem finding somewhere in the Solent to moor. AT times, some popular places will be full (e.g. Cowes during Round the Island or Cowes Week) but there are so many moorings / marinas etc that you can always find somewhere within a couple of miles,

If you're looking for a non anchorage as a good jumping off place to Cherbourg via the needles the usual options would be:
1) Buoys outside Yarmouth - Circa 40 of them, usually loads free. Water taxi into Yarmouth if you want. The most convenient if shore facilities not needed but showers, shops etc still available. Easiest to leave
2) Yarmouth inside - You may be rafted if you can't get a finger pontoon. More work to leave but more comfortable.
3) Lymington Marinas - a mile or two further than Yarmouth.
4) Lymington Town Quay - further in than the marinas - can be busy - almost certainly rafted. Great atmosphere and nice destination but really nota good option for a jump off point!

If you are going to Cherbourg though, then no real reason to go via the Needles although it can give a better slant to the crossing. If the wind is more Westerly than SW then give consideration to going to Cherbourg via the East of the IoW. If doing that then Haslar in Gosport is pretty much ideal. ( odd that Gosport is ever called ideal!!)

 

[prv]

What is a recommended strategy for passing via the IOW ( No anchoring) to get a good trip coming along from the east coast. ( can do hops of 60+ miles quite easily SH) What i do not want is to arrive somewhere & have problems getting a berth when tired or having to pre book etc

If you must stipulate "no anchoring" then I suppose either Lymington or Yarmouth, being the closest to the Needles exit. Neither would absolutely guarantee a berth on a busy summer weekend, though; of the two Lymington is more likely to find somewhere. Alternatively you could go a bit further west before starting your crossing, which would also give a better angle on the likely winds - the North Channel to Poole is a perfectly reasonable route.

It's partly for exactly the reasons you give (not wanting to faff about at the end of the day) that I prefer to anchor around this area the night before heading across the Channel. Either just to the east of the Hurst spit or in Alum or Totland bays, depending on the wind. If taking the "further west" option, then Studland or Swanage - going all the way up Poole harbour just to tie up in the marina is a substantial detour. These spots are as close as you can get to the jumping-off point, are not going to have problems of space (there will probably be another boat or two at Hurst, but you'll likely have Alum Bay to yourself), don't have the hassle of single-handed berthing in a tight marina, and are dead easy to slip away from in the morning (not relevant to you, but I can get going as soon as I wake up without having to disturb crew, until the lumpiness over the Bridge shakes them awake to bring me a bacon sandwich ). I assume you're not going to be hanging one on in the town pubs the night before a Channel crossing, and most of your likely destinations on the other side will be marinas for showers/shopping/etc, so what's the urgent need on this side? A comfy loo?

Pete

 

[Daydream believer]

If you must stipulate "no anchoring" then I suppose either Lymington or Yarmouth, being the closest to the Needles exit. Neither would absolutely guarantee a berth on a busy summer weekend, though; of the two Lymington is more likely to find somewhere. Alternatively you could go a bit further west before starting your crossing, which would also give a better angle on the likely winds - the North Channel to Poole is a perfectly reasonable route.. I assume you're not going to be hanging one on in the town pubs the night before a Channel crossing, and most of your likely destinations on the other side will be marinas for showers/shopping/etc, so what's the urgent need on this side? A comfy loo?

Pete

Personally I hate the hassle of anchoring. I always sail a day & rest a day & like to explore the place i am visiting. Entering & berthing is easy & does not faze me in the least. It can be socially more interesting to be berthed near others & to explore local eateries & especially the yacht clubs which I always try to go to. Most club member are usually welcoming to single handed visitors. I try to treat the cruise as a holiday rather than a chore even though I usually have to get to St PP on time to meet the family who use me as cheap caravan.
Rafting is rarely a problem provided those one rafts to are reasonable. If not then I move.
However, the comments suggest that there can be, as I feared, problems with berth availability around the Solent & for that reason i will probably have to stay away.
Pity, I would have liked to have tried Lymington or Yarmouth
Thanks for the comments

 

[Daydream believer]

so what's the urgent need on this side? A comfy loo?

Pete

Totally off thread this one but when i bought my Hanse I had intended to buy an Elan 31. However, just before I did I stood in the loo & realised that I could not stand upright. I was bent forward with hips back. So to use the loo for a pee, unless I was hung like a donkey, there was no way I could reach the pan other than by sitting on it.
The Hanse has the biggest & best heads of any of the 31 ft boats of its time & the wife noted that one straight away.
It is Ok sailing upwind really well, but with your legs crossed it kind of takes the thrill off of it.

 

[lw395]

Lymington and Yarmouth are normally fine 5 days a week.

 

[jimi]

It been a few years since I've been in Yarmouth but that's ideal as a kick off for a crossing to Chebourg, going through the Needles Channel is not an issue , get the tide right and it gives a fast start to the crossing (as a side note if you get the tide wrong when coming in you can work back eddies up the IoW side of the Needles Channel and the mainland side of the Solent so its not a complete disaster). The other advantage of the Needles v. East Solent departure is that is gives you a few degrees on the wind whick can make a difference in the prevailing SW. If departing from the Eastern Solent its also critical to get the tide right otherwise you'll get very familiar with a bit of the IoW landscape!

 

[Lucky Duck]

If departing from the Eastern Solent its also critical to get the tide right otherwise you'll get very familiar with a bit of the IoW landscape!

We learnt that the hard way on our first crossing from Cherbourg to Portsmouth!

These days if the tide is West going in the later stages of the crossing then we keep well away from the IoW shore.

 

[prv]

Personally I hate the hassle of anchoring. I always sail a day & rest a day & like to explore the place i am visiting. Entering & berthing is easy & does not faze me in the least. It can be socially more interesting to be berthed near others & to explore local eateries & especially the yacht clubs which I always try to go to.

I'm still a little bemused at the idea that anchoring is a hassle, but I now understand the desire to be in town. I guess because this is all my local stomping ground there's no particular interest in it for me - my mind is already across the Channel and the western Solent is just a kind of motorway service station at which to break the journey for a night. But when you're already on your holiday cruise, of course you would want to stop in and visit.

However, the comments suggest that there can be, as I feared, problems with berth availability around the Solent & for that reason i will probably have to stay away.

I think this is probably overblown. I know I said "berths not guaranteed", but I really was thinking only of long-forecast very sunny bank holiday weekends, when there's a risk that Yarmouth might be full late in the day. I think you would always find somewhere in Lymington even if Berthon and the Town Quay were full, and during the week you would have no trouble in either.

Pete