Seajet
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I've been going that way for the last 40+ years too, and one cannot see N Head buoy from Hurst.
Needles / Overly Cautious?
- Thread starter CondorAA5A
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I've been going that way for the last 40+ years too, and one cannot see N Head buoy from Hurst.
dom
Well-Known Member
A truly excellent MAIB synopsis of multiple accidents. The case in question is covered on P10/11. IIRC wind was forrecast 7-9, but rose to F11 following a protracted series of February gales. Nothing like a summer F6.
Here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/373856/LCSD.pdf
I do not recall seeing the Yarmouth Lifeboat stating that 'even they' would not enter the Needles in a F6+ on the flood; perhaps a general recommendation to small craft, which makes absolute sense.
Here's a vid of the Yarmouth RNLI conducting a MoB recovery during last year's Round the Island Race: conditions F6, gusting F8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgXA6kDNiuk
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alant
Well-Known Member
I can, but you probably miss it going at warp speeds.
alant
Well-Known Member
His comments were made during the inquest, so quoting from memory.
IIRC, the forecast was for a F11 & I was sheltering behind a sea wall overlooking the Needles at about the time of this incident. Wind conditions were horrendous where I was, almost unable to look to windward, so cannot even start to imagine conditions off the Needles Channel.
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
I recall a similar debate about the visibility of the submarine barrier just East of Portsmouth and the new piles for the aircraft carriers approach to Portsmouth harbour
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
Out of interest, if cutting this corner in the dark, presumably you sail north until you see the white light from Hurst and then turn and sail 'down the beam' (obviously making a small southerly adjustment before the beach). I do like Hurst lighthouse both using the RWG sectored light in the Needles Channel and knowing that in the North Channel, if you can see the light you're well away from the Shingles and also clear of Hurst beach (until the very end, as mentioned). I do agree with everyone who has urged caution around the Bridge in the conditions described by the OP.
lw395
Well-Known Member
The report highlights that bad sea conditions persist after the ebb has finished, i.e. after LW.
That should come as no surprise to any Solent sailor.
Waves built up by wind-over-tide conditions don't instantly switch off as the tide stops.
Likewise FWIW, they take a while to build up when the tide starts running.
Also the Bridge is quite shallow,
(especially at LW of course) and quite narrow, any wave energy is passing through a small amount of water at that point.
So, in my view I'd avoid the Needles in a lot of wind when the tide is against it or only just turned. Particularly if it's been windy for a while and there's a lot of swell in the English Channel.
Adjust 'a lot' to suit the size of boat etc.
BTw, the rough water does not end once you're over the Bridge, Totland and Hurst can be awful.
dom
Well-Known Member
Such an important point. At sea waves are basically determined by wind strength, time blown, fetch and swell patterns. Closer to shore the equation is complicated by shallowing, reflection, etc. Toss strong tides and headland pinch-points into the equation and the whole affair becomes almost impossible to model. Worse, at certain critical energy points - when the the total energy in the system reaches a specific level - the seas basically become an unmodelable mess. Or at least that's how one of the Wolfson guys explained it.
All that's left is to determine empirically - as I guess you're doing - what sea conditions are not very nice and keep away.
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oldharry
Well-Known Member
An RN Commander told me that the only time he saw green water in the bridge of his Minesweeper was off the Bridge buoy, although they had been out to the Far East. Also a Free French Corvette was capsized out there during the war. Not a place to mess about, and IMHO OP made the right decision.
wizard
Well-Known Member
I recall a similar debate about the visibility of the submarine barrier just East of Portsmouth and the new piles for the aircraft carriers approach to Portsmouth harbour
Its the wooden spoon for you!
lw395
Well-Known Member
Always worth returning to the OP?
Description of wind and tide direction suggests to me that he'd have arrived at the Needles late in the Eastgoing tide, so probably 'relatively' benign in terms of wind vs tide.
But then depending on where one was coming from, the advantage of going for the Needles may have been small anyway.
But I suspect the sea conditions may have played a part in the decision, if you are sailing downwind in F6 and starting to worry about Hurst, it seems possible it had been blowing a while and the sea had got up a bit?
Never forget that the E Solent has its moments too, particularly if there's a bit of East in a Southerly.
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
Only gone that way in daylight. The breaking waves make it obvious where the shallow water is.
jimi
Well-Known Member
I've been in a similar position to the OP heading back across the channel for the Needles channel and it building to a good F7 by the time we got there. I opted to play it safe and come in the North Channel. We had to gybe and we did it when surfing down a big wave to minimise apparent wind speed.
With the case of the boat that lost 3 lives, it was in the days before GPS and I wonder if their main issue was that they were too close to the Shingles and they may have got away with it had they been in the channel proper. A lot easier to get right now we have GPS although the sector lights are pretty good. . I certainly would'nt want to be unsure of my position around there .
With the case of the boat that lost 3 lives, it was in the days before GPS and I wonder if their main issue was that they were too close to the Shingles and they may have got away with it had they been in the channel proper. A lot easier to get right now we have GPS although the sector lights are pretty good. . I certainly would'nt want to be unsure of my position around there .
alant
Well-Known Member
If you need gps to enter the needles channel, you need to go to specsavers, when all you need to do is stay in the Needles light white sector, until Hurst white sector is seen, then just run down until Hurst is reached.
PS also available & visible during daylight.
Last thing you want to do is keep checking gps, perhaps down below, when perfectly good sector lights are available.
jimi
Well-Known Member
I think you'll find I said that the sector lights are good in my post, and I've used them myself in days prior to having gps (and in preference to GPS when tacking down the channel)
My point was in response to the MAIB digest which said "Because some difficulty was encountered in identifying their precise position, the skipper altered course to the south as he feared he was too close to the Shingles. Moments later a particularly vicious sea capsized the yacht throwing all four crew overboard. "
The issue would appear to me that these guys were sailing onto the Shingles, not up the Needles channel.
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alant
Well-Known Member
Not in the white sector then, its all red if heading toward the shingle bank.
Thats the main purpose of sectored lights, you don't need to know exact position, only that you are in correct sector.
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jimi
Well-Known Member
Sigh, yes. You and I know that cos there's more than one sector light covering the danger area and the channel. My point is that these chaps seemed to have positional problems, these positional problems are less likely to occur today with GPS positioning on a chart. The fact he was trying to head south (rather than east or west) would indicate to me he had not found the channel and had been sailing straight onto the Shingles
And to get back to the point I was making,.. that had they been in the channel proper then they would have had a rough ride but probably been OK and that this case is not a case study in avoiding the Needles Channel but is a very good one for avoiding the Shingles (by the use of sector lights, GPS, or wahatever).
dom
Well-Known Member
Let's assume jimi can see for a moment. He's coming from Poole navigating by the Needles' sector lights. IIRC this will take him in pretty much over the Bridge Buoy. With no GPS he suddenly spots the 'South West Shingles' Buoy flashing red off his stud bow (c. 0.5m SW of the Bridge Cardinal) and immediately turns to the south.
No idea if that's what happened, but one can't dismiss this hypothesis on the basis of the sector lights. Unless I'm mistaken and the red sector light will keep him south of the SW Shingles Buoy?
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
As per, if intending to take the Needles Channel rather than the North Channel, it's a good idea to leave the Needles Fairway buoy to port when entering the Solent coming from Poole, to make it straightforward to line up for the RWG sectored light of Hurst.
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jimi
Well-Known Member
I've just checked my old chart and I reckon you're right ,staying just in the white sector light on the needles seems to take you to the north of the SW Shingles Buoy. Not a good place to be, partic in crap weather as its essentially and extension of the Shingles.