Waverider this is a serious issue, go and play internet baiting games elsewhere.
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Near collision
- Thread starter iangrant
- Start date
tome
Well-Known Member
Well said Jonjo.
If you read the thread, you'll see that it's the uncertainty of whether or not the ferries will comply with colregs which cause the near-misses. I think it's sad that the most courteous professionals in the Solent appear to have flipped. No doubt the blame lies at least partly on our side, but it's sad all the same.
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If you read the thread, you'll see that it's the uncertainty of whether or not the ferries will comply with colregs which cause the near-misses. I think it's sad that the most courteous professionals in the Solent appear to have flipped. No doubt the blame lies at least partly on our side, but it's sad all the same.
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MainlySteam
Well-Known Member
I think that Waverider, intentionally or not, is actually making a valid point. Just as in many places buses carry signs on their rears say "Please Let the Bus Go First" I believe that one should try to do the same for larger commercial vessels, especially when there are many small vessels around. That is for both safety and courteousness reasons.
The courteousness is that they have a schedule to keep and generally small pleasure vessels do not. The crew of the commercial vessels have to do what they do, weave in and out of pleasure vessels it seems, every day because pleasure vessels stand on to them - a pleasure vessel crew may only be out on 1 or 2 days a week at most and for enjoyment rather than for earning an income.
But more importantly, safety. The larger commercial vessel is almost always less manoeuvrable and in busy small boat conditions is greatly in the minority numbers wise with respect to their size. That means that the crew have to plot many small vessels, with a wide range of speeds, and for them it is more important to do so because of their own lesser manoeuvrability (and often also their own much higher speed). Any course change resulting from avoiding a standing on small vessel changes the plot for the multitudes of others around and has to be refreshed, hopefully without any mistakes. If plotting yachts, the task is complicated by their speed and course often not being predictable due to changes in wind speed and direction.
Pleasure vessels do not have to be so concerned about the courses of others in the wider plotting area because of their own manoeuvrability and only need to plot small vessels quite close to them together with the much fewer larger vessels about which they may feel they could be intimidated by. For any course change they make as a result of being the give way vessel, or to be polite if not, the matter is of little consequence.
Perhaps a perspective on this is to compare the larger commercial boats viewpoint as being much the same as ones own when one is faced with sailing or motoring through a big gaggle of small dinghies, close by in small boat terms, all heading in their own directions and all demanding stand on rights when they have them. Often those dinghies do not understand the lesser manoeuvrability of a larger keelboat when compared to their own.
Even in non crowded conditions I will always plot (assuming it is feasible) to clear commercial vessels including other service vessels such as police and customs. I do that in plenty of time so that they can see that is so. If having to cross a string of closely spaced commercial vessels all on similar courses or opposed courses but not constrained by draft (say in a route clearing a harbour) I always plot to pass between them even if I would have been the stand on vessel. Sometimes, if because the vessels are so close together or because there is a big variability in their speeds (eg there may be vessels at speeds spread between 10 - 40 knots) so that it is hard to estimate what one will clear by, I will stop and wait for a gap.
The collision prevention regulations do not require one to do these things, but just as on the roads it is often appropriate to "Let the Bus Go First".
John
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The courteousness is that they have a schedule to keep and generally small pleasure vessels do not. The crew of the commercial vessels have to do what they do, weave in and out of pleasure vessels it seems, every day because pleasure vessels stand on to them - a pleasure vessel crew may only be out on 1 or 2 days a week at most and for enjoyment rather than for earning an income.
But more importantly, safety. The larger commercial vessel is almost always less manoeuvrable and in busy small boat conditions is greatly in the minority numbers wise with respect to their size. That means that the crew have to plot many small vessels, with a wide range of speeds, and for them it is more important to do so because of their own lesser manoeuvrability (and often also their own much higher speed). Any course change resulting from avoiding a standing on small vessel changes the plot for the multitudes of others around and has to be refreshed, hopefully without any mistakes. If plotting yachts, the task is complicated by their speed and course often not being predictable due to changes in wind speed and direction.
Pleasure vessels do not have to be so concerned about the courses of others in the wider plotting area because of their own manoeuvrability and only need to plot small vessels quite close to them together with the much fewer larger vessels about which they may feel they could be intimidated by. For any course change they make as a result of being the give way vessel, or to be polite if not, the matter is of little consequence.
Perhaps a perspective on this is to compare the larger commercial boats viewpoint as being much the same as ones own when one is faced with sailing or motoring through a big gaggle of small dinghies, close by in small boat terms, all heading in their own directions and all demanding stand on rights when they have them. Often those dinghies do not understand the lesser manoeuvrability of a larger keelboat when compared to their own.
Even in non crowded conditions I will always plot (assuming it is feasible) to clear commercial vessels including other service vessels such as police and customs. I do that in plenty of time so that they can see that is so. If having to cross a string of closely spaced commercial vessels all on similar courses or opposed courses but not constrained by draft (say in a route clearing a harbour) I always plot to pass between them even if I would have been the stand on vessel. Sometimes, if because the vessels are so close together or because there is a big variability in their speeds (eg there may be vessels at speeds spread between 10 - 40 knots) so that it is hard to estimate what one will clear by, I will stop and wait for a gap.
The collision prevention regulations do not require one to do these things, but just as on the roads it is often appropriate to "Let the Bus Go First".
John
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adarcy
Well-Known Member
Re: A voice of sanity !
Hear Hear,
It seems to me that there are far too many boaters who put up a hankie +/- a cone who think they have the right of way regardless.
I salute you Mainlysteam for a healthy dose of common sense.
I just wish it was it a little more common.
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Hear Hear,
It seems to me that there are far too many boaters who put up a hankie +/- a cone who think they have the right of way regardless.
I salute you Mainlysteam for a healthy dose of common sense.
I just wish it was it a little more common.
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tome
Well-Known Member
John
The Wightlink ferries have a service speed of around 12 knots, and generally there are 3 in service with a 4th as backup. The journey time is around 35 minutes. They play a shuttle with only enough space for 2 to dock at the linkspans. At either end of their journeys, they are constrained into port but are otherwise free to manuoevre with a shallow draft. They vary in space between 2-3000 tons but are all of identical dimensions and built in the 80s.
Approaching Portsmouth, they generally take a well-known short cut through a swashway except at low tide, when they join the conventional shipping channel. There are generally 2 ferries crossing so if you see one leaving Portsmouth, you can be sure there is one over your shoulder departing Fishbourne. The 3rd will be lurking to grab one or other vacant berth and isn't a problem.
Understanding their route and behaviour helps to minimise surprises. When on a difficult point of sail (say downwind in a blow), it has always been re-assuring to know that the Wightlink skipper will slip behind, even if this entails a small course correction. On a windward course, you reciprocate by conceding an early and obvious tack. From the bridge of the ferry, the whole route is visible together with all obstructions along the way.
The point of the post (to my understanding) is that this has changed. Let buses go first by all means, but don't make the dangerous assumption that professionals are immune from the collision regs. If it should change this way, then a LNTM is the correct and safe way to introduce it - not a dangerous game of chicken.
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The Wightlink ferries have a service speed of around 12 knots, and generally there are 3 in service with a 4th as backup. The journey time is around 35 minutes. They play a shuttle with only enough space for 2 to dock at the linkspans. At either end of their journeys, they are constrained into port but are otherwise free to manuoevre with a shallow draft. They vary in space between 2-3000 tons but are all of identical dimensions and built in the 80s.
Approaching Portsmouth, they generally take a well-known short cut through a swashway except at low tide, when they join the conventional shipping channel. There are generally 2 ferries crossing so if you see one leaving Portsmouth, you can be sure there is one over your shoulder departing Fishbourne. The 3rd will be lurking to grab one or other vacant berth and isn't a problem.
Understanding their route and behaviour helps to minimise surprises. When on a difficult point of sail (say downwind in a blow), it has always been re-assuring to know that the Wightlink skipper will slip behind, even if this entails a small course correction. On a windward course, you reciprocate by conceding an early and obvious tack. From the bridge of the ferry, the whole route is visible together with all obstructions along the way.
The point of the post (to my understanding) is that this has changed. Let buses go first by all means, but don't make the dangerous assumption that professionals are immune from the collision regs. If it should change this way, then a LNTM is the correct and safe way to introduce it - not a dangerous game of chicken.
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Solitaire
Well-Known Member
Just a small point . The area of operation by the Portsmouth/Fishbourne ferry is not in fact an "open" area of the Solent as you put it. The whole area falls under the jurisdiction of the "Dockyard Port Of Portsmouth" and as such is goverend by any regulations as issued by the Queens Harbour Master. There are specific regualtions issued under LNTM 06/04 regarding Portsmouth Harbour Entrance - Approach Channel, Small Boat Channel, Swashway and Inner Swashway. Full details can be found on the QHM website and the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.qhmportsmouth.com/index.php?subject=note&art=49&seld=1>LNTM 06/04</A> is here.
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iangrant
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that - however we we well to the south and west of Spit Sand Fort and the channels and entrance to Portsmouth Harbour, as I said in open water. Are you suggesting that the Ferries have right of way right across this stretch of water
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iangrant
Well-Known Member
Er - we were being overtaken?? It would have been dangerous to alter course - What would you have done then - down wind ferry behind you?
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oldharry
Well-Known Member
Agreed Solitaire, and certainly anyone who plays silly wotsits in the approaches to Portsmouth deserves everything he gets.
But in Mid Solent, with no reason whatsoever for the Ferries to ignore the Colregs, when I was nearly run down by one 2 years ago, there was absolutely no excuse for him not to make a minor course alteration to pass clear of me as required by Colregs - he was doing 12kts under power diagonally across my course. I was doing 2 - 3 kts under sail - no other vessels anywhere near. Yet he made straight for me and missed by less than 20 feet, causing me to do an emergency gybe.
So whats it all about?
And before you say I should have taken avoiding action (which I did when it became obvious he was playing games) - WHAT action? Slow down? Yes fine, if he is planning to pass astern of me then I will be in his way. Start the engine to speed up? a) that makes me a power vessel under colregs and changes my status as stand on vessel. Anyway how would he know I am now under power? and b) if he is passing ahead, I will still be in his way. Turn towards him to go astern of him? a) In this case not easy because his angle of approach was such that I would have had to go very close hauled and may not have been able to clear him on his present course and b) if he is planning to go astern of me, that puts me back on to a collision course anyway. Gybe, turn away from him, and parallel his course (which was what i did) - yes but did he still have to come so close?
But until this happened 2 years ago (I only go down that way a couple of times a year anyway) yachts were always treated with the utmost courtesy, care and professionalism by the ferries, so that his manoever was totally unexpected - and that is what is so darned dangerous about it.
If we all complain loud enough to QHM and MCA each time this happens, perhaps the few cowboys who have infiltrated Wightlink will be bought to book, and either the situation regularised (like WE always keep clear of THEM regardless under an LNTM) or they play the game by the same rules as the rest of us.
Having said that, transiting their course this year has been entirely hassle free - the one 'close encounter' situation being resolved in good time by an examplary 'clear change of course' by the ferry well before there was any possible close quarters risk.
Did not stop the adrenaline beginning to pump as it became clear he was on a steady bearing as he approached though! And that is the whole point. Its the 'will he, wont he' uncertainty that is sooner or later going to cause an accident.
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But in Mid Solent, with no reason whatsoever for the Ferries to ignore the Colregs, when I was nearly run down by one 2 years ago, there was absolutely no excuse for him not to make a minor course alteration to pass clear of me as required by Colregs - he was doing 12kts under power diagonally across my course. I was doing 2 - 3 kts under sail - no other vessels anywhere near. Yet he made straight for me and missed by less than 20 feet, causing me to do an emergency gybe.
So whats it all about?
And before you say I should have taken avoiding action (which I did when it became obvious he was playing games) - WHAT action? Slow down? Yes fine, if he is planning to pass astern of me then I will be in his way. Start the engine to speed up? a) that makes me a power vessel under colregs and changes my status as stand on vessel. Anyway how would he know I am now under power? and b) if he is passing ahead, I will still be in his way. Turn towards him to go astern of him? a) In this case not easy because his angle of approach was such that I would have had to go very close hauled and may not have been able to clear him on his present course and b) if he is planning to go astern of me, that puts me back on to a collision course anyway. Gybe, turn away from him, and parallel his course (which was what i did) - yes but did he still have to come so close?
But until this happened 2 years ago (I only go down that way a couple of times a year anyway) yachts were always treated with the utmost courtesy, care and professionalism by the ferries, so that his manoever was totally unexpected - and that is what is so darned dangerous about it.
If we all complain loud enough to QHM and MCA each time this happens, perhaps the few cowboys who have infiltrated Wightlink will be bought to book, and either the situation regularised (like WE always keep clear of THEM regardless under an LNTM) or they play the game by the same rules as the rest of us.
Having said that, transiting their course this year has been entirely hassle free - the one 'close encounter' situation being resolved in good time by an examplary 'clear change of course' by the ferry well before there was any possible close quarters risk.
Did not stop the adrenaline beginning to pump as it became clear he was on a steady bearing as he approached though! And that is the whole point. Its the 'will he, wont he' uncertainty that is sooner or later going to cause an accident.
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iangrant
Well-Known Member
Oldharry - exactly right
Ian
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Ian
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> "Please Let the Bus Go First"
Indeed, I will let the buses go first when it is clear what action I should take to let them go first but in East Solent crossing situations my helpful actions as a week-end amateur yachtsman might aggravate the situation.
> The crew of the commercial vessels have to do what they do, weave
> in and out of pleasure vessels it seems, every day
Exactly. They are the pro's and do this every day with the advantage of an elevated perspective on their whole route. As they pick a course they should want all these slow yachts to behave predictably, surely they don't want a small number of week-end skippers making erratic moves in contradiction of collision regulations to "help" them.
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Indeed, I will let the buses go first when it is clear what action I should take to let them go first but in East Solent crossing situations my helpful actions as a week-end amateur yachtsman might aggravate the situation.
> The crew of the commercial vessels have to do what they do, weave
> in and out of pleasure vessels it seems, every day
Exactly. They are the pro's and do this every day with the advantage of an elevated perspective on their whole route. As they pick a course they should want all these slow yachts to behave predictably, surely they don't want a small number of week-end skippers making erratic moves in contradiction of collision regulations to "help" them.
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l'escargot
Well-Known Member
Re: A voice of sanity !
I don't see where either a hanky or a cone come into this, it is a case of a large fast vessel overtaking a small slow vessel converging on the same destination. It could be you, engine or not.
It is not just a case of "right of way" it is a case of having limited options when under sail and vessels under power have to make allowance for this whether you like it or not. In fact the rules insist that you do.
As another poster has said, there are often 3 ferries in sight for all of the daylight hours and if you are in the eastern Solent, especially heading towards Portsmouth, you will cross the ferry tracks on several occasion. The ferries have got to accept that they are not on rails, they deviate to suit themselves, they also have to deviate sometimes for others. If they want to drive on rails they should go and drive trains.
It is interesting that you don't hear of problems from the other end of the Solent with the Lymington ferry, where the waters are much more confined. Why the different attitude with the skippers there?
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I don't see where either a hanky or a cone come into this, it is a case of a large fast vessel overtaking a small slow vessel converging on the same destination. It could be you, engine or not.
It is not just a case of "right of way" it is a case of having limited options when under sail and vessels under power have to make allowance for this whether you like it or not. In fact the rules insist that you do.
As another poster has said, there are often 3 ferries in sight for all of the daylight hours and if you are in the eastern Solent, especially heading towards Portsmouth, you will cross the ferry tracks on several occasion. The ferries have got to accept that they are not on rails, they deviate to suit themselves, they also have to deviate sometimes for others. If they want to drive on rails they should go and drive trains.
It is interesting that you don't hear of problems from the other end of the Solent with the Lymington ferry, where the waters are much more confined. Why the different attitude with the skippers there?
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Solitaire
Well-Known Member
I'm not suggesting anything. Simply pointing out the extent of the area of the Dockyard of Portsmouth and the fact that you were south and west of Spit Sand Fort still puts you within the area - as long as you were inside the line running from Hill Head across to the IOW. As to "right of way" under Col reg 2 of course there is no such action. However, if the ferry was operating within the Swashway it could be deemed that it was operating in a "fairway". If that was the case, then "a vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway"
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iangrant
Well-Known Member
No we were in open water - I certainly would not have impeded a vessel in the fairway - I think he misjudged the overtake.
Ian
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Ian
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tcm
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Re: \"Shall not impede\"
the route into portsmouth would be deemed a narrow channel, i suppose, so 9(j) (i think that's the correct one) applies. ie, all boats under 20m shall not impede the safe passage of larger (ie over 20m) vessels. That means you shd stay out of the way of the ferries.
The other parts of the IRPCS would be more applicable at sea, not in areas controlled by harbour authorities, altho it sems lots of raggies like to think they are on the high seas when in solent. But as above, portsmouth "harbour" extends a good deal further than the entrance.
Listening on ch 11 around portsmouth is a requirement whilst within the portsmth harbour area which includes all the way over to Ryde.
Aside from all that, the ferries have done a zillion miles more than pleasure sailors, so any investigation would weigh heavily against at the start, more so if the smaller boat is not monitoring ch11, and more so again with 9j.
Someone else said summink about inner swashway - no limit on length there as far as i know- the length requirement means that all boats over 20m must ask QHM permish to move, and boats UNDER 20m must use the small boat channel.
Oh, and i screw it up as well, incl going straight over from Gosport instead of via ballast oops....
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the route into portsmouth would be deemed a narrow channel, i suppose, so 9(j) (i think that's the correct one) applies. ie, all boats under 20m shall not impede the safe passage of larger (ie over 20m) vessels. That means you shd stay out of the way of the ferries.
The other parts of the IRPCS would be more applicable at sea, not in areas controlled by harbour authorities, altho it sems lots of raggies like to think they are on the high seas when in solent. But as above, portsmouth "harbour" extends a good deal further than the entrance.
Listening on ch 11 around portsmouth is a requirement whilst within the portsmth harbour area which includes all the way over to Ryde.
Aside from all that, the ferries have done a zillion miles more than pleasure sailors, so any investigation would weigh heavily against at the start, more so if the smaller boat is not monitoring ch11, and more so again with 9j.
Someone else said summink about inner swashway - no limit on length there as far as i know- the length requirement means that all boats over 20m must ask QHM permish to move, and boats UNDER 20m must use the small boat channel.
Oh, and i screw it up as well, incl going straight over from Gosport instead of via ballast oops....
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tome
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Shall not impede\"
<Someone else said summink about inner swashway - no limit on length there as far as i know>
LNTM 06/04 extract:
10. Inner Swashway. The Inner Swashway is closed to vessels of 20m in length and over. Vessels over this size are to remain in the Approach Channel between the entrance to the Harbour and No 4 Bar Buoy. They should not enter the Small Boat Channel at any time except that they may do so when taking action to avoid collision under the COLREGS.
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<Someone else said summink about inner swashway - no limit on length there as far as i know>
LNTM 06/04 extract:
10. Inner Swashway. The Inner Swashway is closed to vessels of 20m in length and over. Vessels over this size are to remain in the Approach Channel between the entrance to the Harbour and No 4 Bar Buoy. They should not enter the Small Boat Channel at any time except that they may do so when taking action to avoid collision under the COLREGS.
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robp
Well-Known Member
Re: A voice of sanity !
This isn't a case of "right of way regardless". The collregs are there, much like a contract, to avoid ambiguity, uncertainty and for the parties involved to know what to expect. There is an absolute right to know what evasive action one need take.
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This isn't a case of "right of way regardless". The collregs are there, much like a contract, to avoid ambiguity, uncertainty and for the parties involved to know what to expect. There is an absolute right to know what evasive action one need take.
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jimi
Well-Known Member
Re: A voice of sanity !
Just an observation, entering Portsmouth early sat evening .. on the swashway transit .. well off to port we observed a yacht and a ferry , they were so close I thought their was bound to be a collision, I was'nt close enough to see exactly what actions were being taken but IMHO the yacht was well off any transit .. it certainly looked to me as if the ferry was acting in an unacceptable fashion. Had it been me in the yacht I ewould have reported the silly sod to the CG or QHM.
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Just an observation, entering Portsmouth early sat evening .. on the swashway transit .. well off to port we observed a yacht and a ferry , they were so close I thought their was bound to be a collision, I was'nt close enough to see exactly what actions were being taken but IMHO the yacht was well off any transit .. it certainly looked to me as if the ferry was acting in an unacceptable fashion. Had it been me in the yacht I ewould have reported the silly sod to the CG or QHM.
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tcm
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Re: \"Shall not impede\"
oops well, there you are. Not in the almanac as far as i remeber, and i spose it should be.
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oops well, there you are. Not in the almanac as far as i remeber, and i spose it should be.
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tcm
...
Re: open water?
not sure that simply " south and west" of spit sand fort is "open water"
clip from the qhm site... (from which i've leant some stuff just today!) ...
"The area of jurisdiction for Portsmouth CHA has a boundary joining the following positions:
Gilkicker Point Light (50° 46.4N, 01° 08.4'W).
Western end of Ryde Pier (50° 44.3N, 01° 09.6W), Isle of Wight. Then along the coast to
Culver Cliff (50° 40N 01° 05.6W), Isle of Wight.
Nab Tower (50° 40N, 0° 57.1W),
1.1 miles due South of Selsey Bill (50° 43.3N, 0° 47.2W).
0.1 miles due South of Selsey Bill.
Chichester Bar Light (50° 45.9N, 0° 56.4W).
Cambrian Wreck Buoy (50° 44.4N, 01° 03.4W) then due North to the shoreline (50° 46.9N, 01° 03.4W) and all the tidal water within Portsmouth Harbour."
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not sure that simply " south and west" of spit sand fort is "open water"
clip from the qhm site... (from which i've leant some stuff just today!) ...
"The area of jurisdiction for Portsmouth CHA has a boundary joining the following positions:
Gilkicker Point Light (50° 46.4N, 01° 08.4'W).
Western end of Ryde Pier (50° 44.3N, 01° 09.6W), Isle of Wight. Then along the coast to
Culver Cliff (50° 40N 01° 05.6W), Isle of Wight.
Nab Tower (50° 40N, 0° 57.1W),
1.1 miles due South of Selsey Bill (50° 43.3N, 0° 47.2W).
0.1 miles due South of Selsey Bill.
Chichester Bar Light (50° 45.9N, 0° 56.4W).
Cambrian Wreck Buoy (50° 44.4N, 01° 03.4W) then due North to the shoreline (50° 46.9N, 01° 03.4W) and all the tidal water within Portsmouth Harbour."
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