Navionics. Relief Shading.

RupertW said:
Why would you ever do that?
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This can happen without you going through that.
e.g. app updates.

It's happened to me more than once.
The workaround is to check that the app is still logged in before you set off.

And as above, if it was for an aircraft, you wouldn't do it that way.
(well, I really hope they haven't put anything like that on the aircraft version!)
 
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MystyBlue2 said:
But in all fairness, What is the big panic of being signed in?
If you've downloaded the charts for "Offline Mode" there shouldn't be any panic if the app decides to sign you out as the chart still works as it would as if you where still signed in providing they've been "Pre downloaded" before hand.
Click to expand...

Because on the latest version of the app, if you are signed out, you can't get anywhere until you sign back in again - you end up stuck at the login screen until you get a signal and log back in. You'd be very worried if an Airbus worked this way.
 
FlowerPower said:
Because on the latest version of the app, if you are signed out, you can't get anywhere until you sign back in again - you end up stuck at the login screen until you get a signal and log back in.
Click to expand...
Ah i see what you mean now, you've got to be signed into the app main page to be able to acess chart even if they've been downloaded or not.

I'll give it ago, Next time I'm out i will turn off wifi, Sign out of app, And try to use the chart signed out and offline. I must admit this has never happened to me so i cant pass comment but i will put it to the test on my next outing.
 
FlowerPower said:
I just logged out, turned off "Wifi" and "Mobile Data".
Try to get back in ... "Connection Failed".
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By trying really hard you can do it but you wouldn’t and couldn’t do it accidentally. If you updating the app then by definition you have signal and are logged in. It’s a complete non-issue in the real world.
 
RupertW said:
By trying really hard you can do it but you wouldn’t and couldn’t do it accidentally. If you updating the app then by definition you have signal and are logged in. It’s a complete non-issue in the real world.
Click to expand...

I am happy that it's a non-issue for you :)
Apps can auto-update ...
I've categorised it as "something to be aware of".
 
RupertW said:
They can’t auto update unless you have a signal
Click to expand...

All I can say is that I have found myself more than once opening the app on the boat to be faced with the login screen.
Exactly what caused that I couldn't exactly say.
Maybe the app updated itself sometime before I got to the boat, maybe something cleared the protected storage with my login details, maybe an app or OS glitch, who knows.
Either way, it's something that can happen, and if it hasn't happened to you, then great.

A quick power up of the app before you set off is the mitigation.
 
Just read an article in Motor Boat and Yachting
Not sure about the system in the article but they are using a ruggedised Android tablet with (they say) a daylight viewable display.
The tablet is a Samsung Galaxy Active Pro
See here
https://www.samsung.com/uk/business/tablets/galaxy-tab-active-pro/sm-t545nzkau07/

Not seen this device before but it might be the solution to using a tablet instead of a plotter.

For me, though, mobile devices (tablets and phones) are great as a backup / planning device.
Actually on the water, you can't beat a proper plotter.
My G series "plotters" aren't really plotters at all.
They are monitors that connect to the Raymarine GPM (black box).
Two monitors at each helm position.
So, I also have a "ships PC" which feeds into the monitors.
This gives me total flexibility with charts.
The PC software runs OpenCPN (the free chart plotter for all platforms - except those iThingies)
My setup uses several GPS feeds and AIS into the PC thus providing a completely parallel nav system alongside the dedicated Raymarine kit.

But, getting back to the point, a plotter on a mobile tablet is a good thing - as a backup and as a means of planning but, IMO, not as the main nav system.
 
FlowerPower said:
That's offline mode.
Marvellous.

Now click on "Menu" within the app, click on your username on the upper left hand side, then select "Log out".
Try getting back in with no signal and report back.
:)
Click to expand...
yep logged out and can't get back in until got a signal.
Why log out if you know you won't have a signal?
If you don't have a signal then the charts and app will not update,
 
I should probably put my hand up and confess that app development is part of what I do on a day to day basis.
Something like an iPad is fine for planning purposes, but knowing what I know, I wouldn't have an iPad as my primary navigation device, I just wouldn't.

If you could see iOS code, you'd see masses of conditional logic ... "if it's iOS 11, do it this way, if iOS13 then something entirely different."
App developers spend loads of time testing with future drops of iOS to check that things don't break, but they frequently do.
Objective C is incredibly low-level, and prone to all kinds of strange bugs (hopefully not many apps using this still).
Swift is somewhat better, but then you also have the option of a bunch of complex frameworks on top of the OS e.g. Cordova, Xamarin, all constantly changing in parallel with the OS which is also constantly changing.
You can end up taking a testflight and finding that the engines have been upgraded in a way that no longer work with your throttles.
Mostly devs and QA get this right, but sometimes things do slip through the net e.g. on older devices (Android is even less consistent, with small functional variations across brands).
App development is mostly keeping one step away from disaster ... finding out your latest update caused 200k people to lose access to their bank accounts causes excitement of all the wrong kind.

The fact that the software has this requirement to be "logged in" to work should be a red flag to anyone thinking about the intended use of it.
Clearly the developers are not thinking along the lines of "ruggedised, fully independent, dedicated, primary marine navigation system", otherwise it wouldn't be there.

e.g. you are in Port, you download the latest iOS version or app update ... things can just BREAK, and good luck to the average user backing out from that one.
 
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FlowerPower said:
I should probably put my hand up and confess that app development is part of what I do on a day to day basis.
Something like an iPad is fine for planning purposes, but knowing what I know, I wouldn't have an iPad as my primary navigation device, I just wouldn't.

App development is mostly keeping one step away from disaster ... finding out your latest update caused 200k people to lose access to their bank accounts causes excitement of all the wrong kind.

The net result of this all is that you are in Port, you download the latest iOS version or app update ... things can just BREAK, and good luck to the average user backing out from that one.
Click to expand...
The switch from 32bit to 64bit in iOS caught my wife out and lost her access to her accounts, she is quite reluctant to update her software/hardware and she still laments about her old Nokia :)
 
Alicatt said:
The switch from 32bit to 64bit in iOS caught my wife out and lost her access to her accounts, she is quite reluctant to update her software/hardware and she still laments about her old Nokia :)
Click to expand...
+1 on that one. I HATE new tech and try not to rely on it as its nothing new for it to pack in/Fail/have difficulty in connecting.

I prefer the old Nokia 3310 personally, They where robust and very reliable. If i remember correctly i tried to ruin one as a teen and couldn't.

I threw it in the bath,...Dried it on the radiator and it WORKED,

threw it off a wall and it wouldn't break,

Then put it under the car wheel for my mum to drive over it with a LWB Pajero and it STILL WOULDN'T BREAK.

They put all latest technologies and gizmos to shame these days and it all comes down to profit of the companies and not the quality of the products.
 
FlowerPower said:
I should probably put my hand up and confess that app development is part of what I do on a day to day basis.
Something like an iPad is fine for planning purposes, but knowing what I know, I wouldn't have an iPad as my primary navigation device, I just wouldn't.

If you could see iOS code, you'd see masses of conditional logic ... "if it's iOS 11, do it this way, if iOS13 then something entirely different."
App developers spend loads of time testing with future drops of iOS to check that things don't break, but they frequently do.
Objective C is incredibly low-level, and prone to all kinds of strange bugs (hopefully not many apps using this still).
Swift is somewhat better, but then you also have the option of a bunch of complex frameworks on top of the OS e.g. Cordova, Xamarin, all constantly changing in parallel with the OS which is also constantly changing.
You can end up taking a testflight and finding that the engines have been upgraded in a way that no longer work with your throttles.
Mostly devs and QA get this right, but sometimes things do slip through the net e.g. on older devices (Android is even less consistent, with small functional variations across brands).
App development is mostly keeping one step away from disaster ... finding out your latest update caused 200k people to lose access to their bank accounts causes excitement of all the wrong kind.

The fact that the software has this requirement to be "logged in" to work should be a red flag to anyone thinking about the intended use of it.
Clearly the developers are not thinking along the lines of "ruggedised, fully independent, primary marine navigation system", otherwise it wouldn't be there.

e.g. you are in Port, you download the latest iOS version or app update ... things can just BREAK, and good luck to the average user backing out from that one.
Click to expand...
You keep quoting the “logged in” bit as if it mattered. In the actual world it will never happen without weird tinkering and being logged in is the default position whether you are a thousand miles from internet connection or not.

Agreed on the app side ( I used to design and code software) but firstly I have never seen anything to show that the Navionics app is any flakier than full chart plotters, and secondly it never will be the only device on board - I think we have 9 GPS devices on board to tell us our position and like most people have some basic paper passage charts, pilot books and downloaded chart lets on laptops for the areas we are likely to visit. None as easy as the ever reliable Navionics app but all allowing simpler and safer navigation if it goes down compared to the pre-GPS navigation I grew up doing.
 
RupertW said:
Agreed on the app side ( I used to design and code software) but firstly I have never seen anything to show that the Navionics app is any flakier than full chart plotters, and secondly it never will be the only device on board - I think we have 9 GPS devices on board to tell us our position and like most people have some basic paper passage charts, pilot books and downloaded chart lets on laptops for the areas we are likely to visit. None as easy as the ever reliable Navionics app but all allowing simpler and safer navigation if it goes down compared to the pre-GPS navigation I grew up doing.
Click to expand...

If you have multiple devices, this is a mitigation. I use the app fairly frequently and have an old Raymarine MFD as well.
And if the iPad is all that you have, it's clearly a lot better than nothing. It generally works well if dry and not in really strong sunlight.

But back to the OP, the question was "Why on earth would you spend £150 for a new chart for the fixed chartplotters. For the traditionalists. "
i.e. why not just ditch the fixed chartplotter and just use the iPad ... I would not do that.
Call me a traditionalist :devilish:
 
FlowerPower said:
I should probably put my hand up and confess that app development is part of what I do on a day to day basis.
Something like an iPad is fine for planning purposes, but knowing what I know, I wouldn't have an iPad as my primary navigation device, I just wouldn't.

If you could see iOS code, you'd see masses of conditional logic ... "if it's iOS 11, do it this way, if iOS13 then something entirely different."
App developers spend loads of time testing with future drops of iOS to check that things don't break, but they frequently do.
Objective C is incredibly low-level, and prone to all kinds of strange bugs (hopefully not many apps using this still).
Swift is somewhat better, but then you also have the option of a bunch of complex frameworks on top of the OS e.g. Cordova, Xamarin, all constantly changing in parallel with the OS which is also constantly changing.
You can end up taking a testflight and finding that the engines have been upgraded in a way that no longer work with your throttles.
Mostly devs and QA get this right, but sometimes things do slip through the net e.g. on older devices (Android is even less consistent, with small functional variations across brands).
App development is mostly keeping one step away from disaster ... finding out your latest update caused 200k people to lose access to their bank accounts causes excitement of all the wrong kind.

The fact that the software has this requirement to be "logged in" to work should be a red flag to anyone thinking about the intended use of it.
Clearly the developers are not thinking along the lines of "ruggedised, fully independent, dedicated, primary marine navigation system", otherwise it wouldn't be there.

e.g. you are in Port, you download the latest iOS version or app update ... things can just BREAK, and good luck to the average user backing out from that one.
Click to expand...
Really interesting
I have now finally dumped Microsodt Windows completely from my life.
None of that waiting ages for it to boot.
None of that upgrading going on.
All my computers boot within a few seconds and "I" decide when they upgrade.
None of this - hoping during it booting that it will be the same as it was when I switched it off"
For use as a "ships computer" this concept is essential.
And that is without even mentioning if an internet connection is necessary.
 
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