curve
Well-Known Member
It is a minimal risk to serve the interests of a commercial organisation. It is not comparable.
Naval Flags at half-mast today. Why?
- Thread starter Bav34
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It is a minimal risk to serve the interests of a commercial organisation. It is not comparable.
Minimal?
About 2000 to 3000 HGV driver deaths since 1945. Forces combat deaths in the same period are comparable.
curve
Well-Known Member
What is the ratio of deaths to drivers? What is the ratio of soldiers to deaths?
No-one is deliberately seeking out HGV drivers to kill them.
It is incomparable.
Since WWII our armed forces have average more than 250,000 uniformed personnel. I doubt that practising HGV drivers are far from that number.
curve
Well-Known Member
Nobosy is deliberately seeking to kill them whilst they perform their job for a commercial organisation. The two jobs are incomparable.
elton
Well-Known Member
You surely can't expect your argument to be taken seriously with use a gross misuse of semantics.
Dunno, but at least Curve has woken up to the statistical reality that forces personnel and HGV drivers face a similar probability of death on the job over a full career.
As to misuse of semantics, it is an easy debate cop out to dispute another's language rather than challenge ideas.
curve
Well-Known Member
Yes, I am mortified to find out that driving a truck for Iceland is as risky as six month tour in Afghanistan.
But it isn't really it you look at the statistics properly
Euphonyx
Well-Known Member
you're all full of twoddle. Getting your collective knickers in a knot over nothing. It's a tradition; just like the pretty uniforms and the bells and whistles. These traditions put an acceptable face on what is, essentially a killing machine. The RN lives and dies by tradition. why not use that knowledge to have a laugh. Next time you pass that many ships of the line moored together, casually dip your ensign.... take a sip from your G&T and sit back... listen to the cacophony of tannoys and bangs... watch the scramble along the decks as they rush to return the salute... and thank God for tradition and blind servitude!
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
My daughter's ex-boyfriend entered the Army. I was taking to her about him recently - a coincidence of names made it possible that he had been a casualty in Afghanistan (he wasn't). However, she assured me that youngsters in his position expected to die sooner or later; in fact I was surprised by how strongly she expressed this. It almost seemed to be part of the "mystique" of joining the army. And some years ago I recall chatting to a young soldier on a long train journey, and he was proudly boasting to me that the branch of the service he was in had a very low life expectancy on the battle-field. So, I am not sure that the youthful sense of immortality is actually much of a factor - the reverse seems to be a factor as well, at least in some branches of the services.
However, it would be a very sad world if the friends and colleagues of a dead person - of any occupation - failed to wish to mark their friend or colleague's passing. Sometimes it is appropriate that the marks of respect go to a wider community; I would argue that those who take risks on our behalf - in any occupation - deserve our respect if the risks stack up against them.
And whatever you think of the wars in the Middle East, those young men and women were sent there by OUR elected representatives. Ultimately, we put the politicians in power; if we don't like the results, we should vote differently next time!
zarathustra
Well-Known Member
Most of the military do it for money. Going into distant countries uninvited, armed to the teeth and dropping bombs on them has little to do with defending democracy, in fact wasn't the illegal and disgusting murderous invasions of Afganistan and Iraq under the mask of revenge for a group of Saudi's hijacking a few planes in USA? The profits involved for those decision-makers who waged the war are only coincidental presumably. And why are the troops still there??? Still looking for Bin Laden!!!!!!! Only a gullible chimp would believe the official spin and not see-through the reasons for the horrible invasions. As a tax-payer I certainly take no pride in any of my money going to fund the military. No Afgani or Iraqi ever did me any harm. I don't see how anyone with a clear conscience could associate themselves with an armed invasion of another country, killing people for money and pretending it is to "defend democracy" is an insult to the intelligence.
Euphonyx
Well-Known Member
I always think that in any discussion centered around opinion there is no real room for fact or understanding. Persuasion requires at least two open minds IMHO. Its a great tragedy when opinion is confused with fact.
I doubt that. Since WWII most of those signing up have do so because it suits their personal temperament i.e. spirit of adventure or fear of an office job. Others do it to pick up a trade while seeing a bit of the world.
Unlike you I am happy so see 3% of our GDP spent on the military but I wish the Government would hurry up and fix the present sickly British military establishment. They could start by whittling down the 170 Brigadiers in the army to 70, since strict army ratios indicate we only need 30. Admirals and Commodores in the Navy require a similar cull and they could start with the local Portsmouth chief who put 1/3 of the Royal Navy into official mourning after one death in the Royal Marines.
Bobobolinsky
Well-Known Member
100 years and still no lessons learnt
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!
What a waste of lives, history tells us that there will be no easy outcome in Afganistan.
We've been squabbling over that god forsaken hole for two hundred years
Stick it up yer Khyber.
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!
What a waste of lives, history tells us that there will be no easy outcome in Afganistan.
We've been squabbling over that god forsaken hole for two hundred years
Stick it up yer Khyber.
dslittle
Well-Known Member
Hope
I think that it is incredible that some chose to denigrate the fact that a group of people chose to mourn the death of one of their colleagues, a gesture that can have no real impact on other groups of people/individuals.
I sincerely hope that, if you ever lose a loved one, others will show compassion for your loss regardless of the circumstances.
I think that it is incredible that some chose to denigrate the fact that a group of people chose to mourn the death of one of their colleagues, a gesture that can have no real impact on other groups of people/individuals.
I sincerely hope that, if you ever lose a loved one, others will show compassion for your loss regardless of the circumstances.
nonitoo
Well-Known Member
Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose.
TOMMY
by Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
Tom
TOMMY
by Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
Tom
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Most of the military do it for money.
Nah. Way off target. Try again....
Andrew_Fanner
Well-Known Member
Well said nonitoo.
If you go into hospital you do so perforce. If you go into action on behalf of her Majesty you voluntarily chose a career that could put you there, knowing what might happen. That seems to me to require a higher level of public gratitude and acknowledgement of debt.
If you go into hospital you do so perforce. If you go into action on behalf of her Majesty you voluntarily chose a career that could put you there, knowing what might happen. That seems to me to require a higher level of public gratitude and acknowledgement of debt.
