Nav update options

[DennisF]

I have bought a 1996 Moody S38, which came with an elderly Garmin GPSMap 750 plotter integrated on the pedestal, and a GMR radar which is plugged in to it. I’ve bought an updated chart and plan to just sail it as is this season before deciding on any changes (I’ve also got a tablet running Garmin Boating as well as a backup, and of course paper charts).

However, I’ll probably want to upgrade the system next year, and would want to keep the radar input. The log and depth are separate at present. The pedestal seems to fit the size of the 7” Gpsmap (224mm x 142mm) well. What would people recommend? Are multifunction displays able to accept older GMR radar inputs, and send info to a secondary display? if so which would people recommend ? What about options such as Orca etc??

 

[KompetentKrew]

I would assume that only Garmin plotters will work with your Garmin GMR radar.

I doubt you'd want to move to any other brand if it meant you'd have to replace or do without your radar. I like my B&G but there's not that much to choose between them. You'll need to check with Garmin to see if their newer displays are compatible with your older radar.

Orca aren't doing anything particularly magical, but they're marketing a slick package. I assume their business model is to keep selling you charts and software updates. I'm sure the product is very slick but I won't buy into a software subscription service.

 

[lustyd]

I like my B&G but there's not that much to choose between them

Functionally I agree, but the Garmin is orders of magnitude more responsive in use. With Navico removing Navionics as a chart option Garmin are also cheaper to buy charts for in the longer term.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I have bought a 1996 Moody S38, which came with an elderly Garmin GPSMap 750 plotter integrated on the pedestal, and a GMR radar which is plugged in to it. I’ve bought an updated chart and plan to just sail it as is this season before deciding on any changes (I’ve also got a tablet running Garmin Boating as well as a backup, and of course paper charts).

However, I’ll probably want to upgrade the system next year, and would want to keep the radar input. The log and depth are separate at present. The pedestal seems to fit the size of the 7” Gpsmap (224mm x 142mm) well. What would people recommend? Are multifunction displays able to accept older GMR radar inputs, and send info to a secondary display? if so which would people recommend ? What about options such as Orca etc??

There are several GMR models, which is yours ?

 

[KompetentKrew]

With Navico removing Navionics as a chart option Garmin are also cheaper to buy charts for in the longer term.

Yeah, zero chance of me buying another if I'm locked to a single vendor for charts.

IDK what to say about Navico management - there's a bug with the remote viewer software that makes it unusable and which went unfixed for literally years.

 

[lustyd]

Yeah, zero chance of me buying another if I'm locked to a single vendor for charts.

IDK what to say about Navico management - there's a bug with the remote viewer software that makes it unusable and which went unfixed for literally years.

Often the way with this stuff, it's way too expensive for what is less powerful than a Raspberry Pi so changing vendors is almost impossible.

I was banned from the B&G Facebook group for highlighting bugs, one of which was remote viewer but another, more serious, was that the sync to cloud would corrupt the tracks on the device and not even sync them to the cloud. Switching the unit off by removing power also caused corruption of data. Utterly hopeless software and clearly no QA whatsoever, just "adding features" to compete on paper and praying nobody uses them. That said the Ethernet/Wifi seems to be one of the better boat implementations and it handles fixed IP addresses well enough to work.

 

[dunedin]

Functionally I agree, but the Garmin is orders of magnitude more responsive in use. With Navico removing Navionics as a chart option Garmin are also cheaper to buy charts for in the longer term.

Not sure I understand the basis for that statement.
Navico bought C-Map so presumably encourage the use of that on their set of multiple brands of plotters. Garmin bought Navionics so presumably they also encourage its use on their devices.
But not sure that Navionics is necessarily “cheaper to buy charts for in the longer term” than C-Maps?
Some plotters still offer choice of charts - last I checked Raymarine allowed either their own Lighthouse or Navionics.
Orca I believe only allows their own charts, though not used so not certain.

 

[lustyd]

But not sure that Navionics is necessarily “cheaper to buy charts for in the longer term” than C-Maps?

The updates are cheaper, allow you to sell the old card, and allow you to change region on renewal. CMap is definitely more expensive in the long run especially if you move about as we do. Older B&G did allow a choice but the new ones no longer support Navionics.
Hopefully the bit about the plotters being massively faster was self explanatory, tried them side by side and they felt two decades apart in performance.

 

[John_Silver]

I'm liking the Orca ‘insurgent’ approach: ALL their charts available off line for an annual 49 euro subscription (access is free for online access); system scalability using standard tablets as 'plotter' screens; ability to add ship sourced live AIS data through purchase of a 500 Euro Orca core (free app version uses internet sourced AIS as per MarineTraffic etc); runs wirelessly (other than power to Core). So: cheap, flexible & easy to install (v's trad plotter route). Can also handle modern Raymarine Quantum, Simrad/B&G Halo radars (according to the blurb) - but requires hardwired NMEA 2k connection, for that. ( EDITED in light of Paul's post below)

Have been playing around with the free version of Orca over the winter and like the functionality (and responsiveness of their help desk messaging set up, in aiding exploration that functionality). In two minds whether (currently) available charting detail is sufficient for primary navigation. May be partly presentational. Decide for yourself. These are Tresco Flats and Blood Alley Poole on Orca & Navionics as an example.

Orca


Navionics

OR




​

@KompetentKrew : Think that a big chunk of the Orca business model is based on the sale of the hardware ie Orca Cores + the ruggedised tablets (although it all seems to run fine on a standard iPad. As much as the annual 49 or 149 Euro subs, which buy access to ALL Orca charts off line (they are free for online use -say via Starlink when they mobile signal runs out....). The exta 100 Euros buys more advanced auto-routing.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'm liking the Orca ‘insurgent’ approach: ALL their charts available off line for an annual 49 euro subscription (access is free for online access); system scalability using standard tablets as 'plotter' screens; ability to add ship sourced live AIS data through purchase of a 500 Euro Orca core (free app version uses internet sourced AIS as per MarineTraffic etc); runs wirelessly (other than power to Core). So: cheap, flexible & easy to install (v's trad plotter route). Can also handle modern Raymarine Quantum, Simrad/B&G Halo radars (according to the blurb) - but requires hardwired NMEA 2k connection, for that.

Just had a quick look, can't see any mention of Halo radar. You cannot use radar over N2K, it's too slow, you need Ethernet for radar. According to the Orca website you need the Core 2 (not the Core1) for Ethernet radar and that costs £499

 

[John_Silver]

Just had a quick look, can't see any mention of Halo radar. You cannot use radar over N2K, it's too slow, you need Ethernet for radar. According to the Orca website you need the Core 2 (not the Core1) for Ethernet radar and that costs £499

Must have got my wires crossed on the radar specifics. I don’t run radar, so hadn’t delved into / fully understood the detail there. Just aware it could be integrated into Orca system. Did the model compatibility from memory. Should know better. Thanks for course correction!

Core 1 was the earlier Orca Core. Core 2 the current version. Is my understanding? Required for ship based AIS and/or radar integration.

Have you put in any Orca Cores (of either persuasion) and heard the end user feedback? Satisfied or otherwise, with the Orca set up in practice. In principle it does look attractive. But would be handy to hear real world experience.

£500 for a Core plus a single annual £50 sub for worldwide charts, all run on a tablet that you probably already own, looks pretty good v’s a plotter (£2-3k?) plus multiple (in my case 3) Navionics subs (@£50ish a pop on app much more for card updates)

 

[PaulRainbow]

Must have got my wires crossed on the radar specifics. I don’t run radar, so hadn’t delved into / fully understood the detail there. Just aware it could be integrated into Orca system. Did the model comparability from memory. Should know better! Thanks for course correction!

Core 1 was the earlier Orca Core. Core 2 the current. Is my understanding? Required for ship based AIS and/or radar integration.

Have you put in any Orca Cores (of either persuasion) and heard the end user feedback? Satisfied or otherwise, with the Orca set up in practice. In principle it does look attractive. But would be handy to hear real world experience. £500 for a Coreplus a single annual £50 sub for worldwide charts, all run on a tablet that you probably already own, looks pretty good v’s a plotter (£2-3k?) plus multiple Navionics subs (£50 a pop?)

Not fitted one but have a customer that has a basic setup, they say they like it.

 

[DennisF]

There are several GMR models, which is yours ?

I’d need to look at it when I’m next at the boat I’m afraid

 

[KompetentKrew]

@KompetentKrew : Think that a big chunk of the Orca business model is based on the sale of the hardware ie Orca Cores + the ruggedised tablets (although it all seems to run fine on a standard iPad. As much as the annual 49 or 149 Euro subs, which buy access to ALL Orca charts off line (they are free for online use -say via Starlink when they mobile signal runs out....). The exta 100 Euros buys more advanced auto-routing.

I must say, €49 a year is much cheaper than I was expecting.

People tend to buy instruments and keep then for a very long time, so I'm rather suspicious that all the plotter vendors want to lock us in, but even I would subscribe to Orca at that price.

 

[John_Silver]

Think the £500 Core is the 'money maker.' But it's the key to making a plotter out of your tablet(s), with full integration of AIS/ radar and (I think) all N2K data.......perhaps not so expensive after all? OR just navigate, on the tablet, without data integration, on the £50 all-charts-off-line sub.

 

[PaulRainbow]

You can buy a Garmin 9" plotter for £1000, it will take N2K and 0183, radar, CHIRP sonar, AIS and control an autopilot. It can display engine data, control onboard switching, cameras and much, much more. The Garmin app can be running on 3 cheap Android tablets (or phones, iPads etc) at the same time, either as stand alone plotters using the chart you paid for for the plotter or mirror the plotter. The charts can be renewed annually for half price or don't bother, they don't expire.

An Orca display 2 and core 2 will set you back £1400 and won't do a lot of the above.

 

[John_Silver]

You can buy a Garmin 9" plotter for £1000, it will take N2K and 0183, radar, CHIRP sonar, AIS and control an autopilot. It can display engine data, control onboard switching, cameras and much, much more. The Garmin app can be running on 3 cheap Android tablets (or phones, iPads etc) at the same time, either as stand alone plotters using the chart you paid for for the plotter or mirror the plotter. The charts can be renewed annually for half price or don't bother, they don't expire.

An Orca display 2 and core 2 will set you back £1400 and won't do a lot of the above.

But the Orca display is non-essential, any tablet will run the plotter functions (plus the 'domestic' stuff you'd normally run on it). To play devil’s advocate: surely the 'fair' cost comparator would therefore be £500 for the Core? I don't really see what the Orca display adds over a tablet in a water resistant case. Which has more capabilities at less cost.

The Orca Core allows control of autopilots (it’s one of the selling points) and N2k data. Don’t understand enough to know if that includes sonar.

 

[PaulRainbow]

But the Orca display is non-essential, any tablet will run the plotter functions (plus the 'domestic' stuff you'd normally run on it). So the 'fair' cost comparator would surely be £500 for the Core? I don't really see what the Orca display adds over a tablet in a water resistant case. Which has more capabilities at less cost.

You cannot use it without a screen, so it's £500 plus whatever screen you choose, could just be a cheap Android tablet. But in that case a fairer comparison would be a Garmin 7" plotter, it's only £200 more than the Orca Core 2 and it does have a screen, it still does all of the things from post #16.

I suspect if you use the Orca stuff at the barest minimum it's cost effective, but if you start adding things it quickly gets expensive and still won't do everything a chart plotter will do.