Nautical Terminology

[Serin]

I do seem to be touching a few nerves with my questioning so it is probably best if I leave this alone.

.

"Touching nerves" - ah, the standard strategy for deflecting challenge or criticism on the internet! It's always revealing. A straight response would be a more honest response to people who have responded honestly to you, especially in the light of your initial plea for sympathy. But, no.......

Not impressive.

 

[NormanS]

Probably the reason why you have been shot down in flames, is because in #1 you suggested that the use of the correct terminology is "pretentious". As has been pointed out to you by many, the use of generally accepted terminology is simpler, briefer, safer, less ambiguous, and certainly not pretentious.

 

[Bru]

Some confusion here methinks. Mister E didn't raise his head above this particular parapet until around page 16 and it 'twas not he who said nautical terms were pretentious

 

[Serin]

Some confusion here methinks. Mister E didn't raise his head above this particular parapet until around page 16 and it 'twas not he who said nautical terms were pretentious

No, he just made the very silly observation that nautical terminology represents an attempt to create an "in group/out group" situation. That is, along with various other silly observations and no attempt whatsoever to address any of the points, or even suggestions, made by other posters.

These are the classic tactics of the internet troll.

 

[JumbleDuck]

No, he just made the very silly observation that nautical terminology represents an attempt to create an "in group/out group" situation.

I think it does, some of the time. A bit like flag etiquette.

 

[Serin]

I think it does, some of the time. A bit like flag etiquette.

Evidence? Or projection?

 

[pmagowan]

I have found that everyone that has ever visited my boat has been interested in the terminology. It is new and exciting to them. They like that the 'kitchen' is called the 'galley' and the 'toilet' the 'heads' etc. It becomes a fun game and they try to remember and use the correct words. It is a bit like when I am in Italy, I try and use Italian and my Italian friends often have to correct me. On a boat it is important because there are occasions where actions may need to be taken and the skipper may use a technical term as a matter of habit. It is good to know what He or she is talking about.

If people want to make up their own words that is fine but as others have said it will lead to confusion. I just don't see why you would bother.

 

[Bru]

I've thought of a good reason, for me at least, for saying galley (not kitchen), heads (not loo), saloon (not living room) etc. etc.

If makes a very clear distinction between "house" and "boat" and as we're in the process of moving aboard that's something I'm keen to keep firmly in sight (i.e. we don't want to turn the boat into a floating house if you see what I mean. We want to move aboard a boat not turn a boat into a house, to put it another way)

 

[pmagowan]

I've thought of a good reason, for me at least, for saying galley (not kitchen), heads (not loo), saloon (not living room) etc. etc.

If makes a very clear distinction between "house" and "boat" and as we're in the process of moving aboard that's something I'm keen to keep firmly in sight (i.e. we don't want to turn the boat into a floating house if you see what I mean. We want to move aboard a boat not turn a boat into a house, to put it another way)

I know exactly what you mean and a galley is different from a kitchen. When someone talks about the galley I know that an impressive meal is even more impressive and that design features include safety when heeled and compact storage solutions etc. Heads means funny pumps and valves and an inability to flush the cat down it etc. It is nice to use a word that paints an accurate picture in the mind and keeps the mental image correct. It is one of the nice things about the English language.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Or projection?

It's called a "flagstaff", not a "projection". Honestly, some people just can't be bothered to use the right words.

 

[Serin]

If people want to make up their own words that is fine but as others have said it will lead to confusion. I just don't see why you would bother.

I suspect the main reason why people object to other people using words they do not (yet) understand is simply a chip on the shoulder. As that wise old bird Eleanor Roosevelt remarked - “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”

 

[Mister E]

I was asked once for a term I have used and I replied.

I have asked questions such as why not back and front? If that leads to confusion how do you explain the Nautical Term to somebody who does not sail?

I asked a question in relation to the cabin/sole/floor (both terms used by others in this thread) and this subject was not brought up by me.

If asking questions is a chip on the shoulder seems strange to me.
When simple questions are answered with personal comments it is time to stop. The fact that some then turn to abuse says more about you than me.

 

[ProMariner]

Great thread, have enjoyed reading through it.

I guess sailors have a language, because they are a tribe. Knowledge of that language and its use, marks you as a tribe member, therefore to be trusted. Each boat is like a family within the tribe, therefore language varies between boats, like a badge of membership, nailing down your place in the hierarchy.

The leader is expected to have professional skills, an an ability to communicate them accurately is just one of the many things he will be judged on. Explaining the same evolution to 3 people in 3 completely different ways is common, the only judge of good communication is how successful the manoeuvre. Expecting people who don't know a word, to understand, won't help.

Pretty well all the new sailors I have been out with, relish picking up the language, as it increases their standing in the tribe, and can be good fun.

If they don't, no harm to me, I just explain things differently. As if to a non english speaker, or a small child, you can usually get through.

I enjoy using the language myself, as it gives me an indirect link to all who have added to to sum total of all seamanship, in the world, to whom I am grateful. I enjoy the wealth of regional dialects and industry differences of the sailing world language. Each new word or phrase is a gift.

My favourite, the topsail tack tackle tail.

 

[Serin]

It's called a "flagstaff", not a "projection". Honestly, some people just can't be bothered to use the right words.

Hah! May I refer you to that excellent work by Dr. Freud - The Psychopathology of Everyday Life?

Normally I wouldn't give Dr. Freud the time of day, but with that sage tome he really was on to something.

 

[Serin]

My favourite, the topsail tack tackle tail.

I believe the late lamented Old Harry used to keckle his hawse from time to time. That's another good 'un. I did rather surprise a young crew member once by suggesting that he pass a stopper. But, naturally, I explained most solicitously what I meant and showed him how to tie a rolling hitch. Now he knows how to tie a rolling hitch and what it means to pass a stopper.

He was delighted with his new snippets of arcane knowledge.

 

[NormanS]

When I was a wee boy, messing around with boats, and learning to sail, I devoured "Sailing" and "Cruising" by Peter Heaton, and also all the children's stories by Arthur Ransome. These books make full use of the correct and familiar terminology, and don't seem to have done me any harm.

 

[theoldsalt]

.............I guess sailors have a language, because they are a tribe...............

If by a "tribe" it is meant to describe people who use things that do not exist in other people's experience and therefor requires special words to describe nautical objects and actions then I agree.
However if "tribe" is used to describe people who deliberately use special words to make non users feel excluded then I disagree.
As already said there are special words used in all walks of life which we take for granted because they are more widely experienced. The "niche" world of boating does not need to be any different, and learning nautical terms should like boat handling be part of the fun for novices. (of course some cheat by adding a bow thruster)

 

[pmagowan]

Great thread, have enjoyed reading through it.

I guess sailors have a language, because they are a tribe. Knowledge of that language and its use, marks you as a tribe member, therefore to be trusted. Each boat is like a family within the tribe, therefore language varies between boats, like a badge of membership, nailing down your place in the hierarchy.

The leader is expected to have professional skills, an an ability to communicate them accurately is just one of the many things he will be judged on. Explaining the same evolution to 3 people in 3 completely different ways is common, the only judge of good communication is how successful the manoeuvre. Expecting people who don't know a word, to understand, won't help.

Pretty well all the new sailors I have been out with, relish picking up the language, as it increases their standing in the tribe, and can be good fun.

If they don't, no harm to me, I just explain things differently. As if to a non english speaker, or a small child, you can usually get through.

I enjoy using the language myself, as it gives me an indirect link to all who have added to to sum total of all seamanship, in the world, to whom I am grateful. I enjoy the wealth of regional dialects and industry differences of the sailing world language. Each new word or phrase is a gift.

My favourite, the topsail tack tackle tail.

I disagree. I am sure some people want to feel part of a 'tribe' but in general I think the terminology used is simply for understanding. There needs to be words for stuff on a boat, those words need to be common within boating to avoid confusion. People who call a spade a spade rather than an impliment used for digging in the garden are not doing so to be part of a 'tribe' they are doing so because anyone with a rudimentary understanding of gardening terms will know what they mean. In my garden I have spades, shovels, forks etc. When I ask my father to hand me the shovel I don't expect to recieve a fork! We are not part of a 'gardening tribe', we are simply gardeners who know the correct name for things. If I was teaching someone about gardening I would not teach them imaginary, made up, unique words for all the impliments like 'the prongy diggy thing' or 'the big flat diggy thing', I would say fork and shovel! I would show them a fork and say 'this is a fork, it is used for x,y and z'.

There are certainly people who appear to have a chip on their shoulder that their ignorance of something means that the informed person is arrogant, tribal and simply trying to exclude them. I find that these people are rare, or perhaps I choose not to have them in my company. Most people I introduce to boating seem quite happy to try and understand the terminology along with the physics, meteorology, hydrography, engineering, history and stories associated with it. It is all fun which is why we do it.

 

[Serin]

I disagree.

Agree - with every word of this post. I am not part of a "tribe" - other sailing types are just people with whom I share an interest and with whom I can communicate easily about our common interest. I don't identify with them as a group. Neither do I feel remotely superior to my many friends, colleagues and acquaintances who do not share this interest. Most of them have interests, experience and skills of their own that I respect no less, and often more, that the experience and skills I have learned in a lifetime around boats. I seen no reason to get resentful or grumpy or accuse them of trying to exclude me or put me down in some way, just because they have mastered the language of a different area of human activity that I'm not familiar with.

And I know quite well that if I want to learn to do as they do, I shall have to start at the bottom and make the effort to learn, just as they have done. Frustrating, perhaps, but that's life.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

That is also what I am getting at, if you add somebody who can not remember some of the terms especially the obscure ones (the list earlier on not covering that many letters). Then you can have people who do not know what you are on about.
Then they are not likely to want to be in that situation again. So even if it is not the correct ancient term but is clearly understood by all it seems to me to be a reasonable idea to use something obvious.
As an example front and back, after all you do use forward or is it forad?

A cabin sole/floor is claimed to cause confusion, so why do the fore and main sails use the same terms for both sails?

Unfortunately the floor of a boat is not the same as the sole. The floor of the boat is the bottom of the boat itself - that makes it really confusing as the cabin sole is effectively what would be floorboards in a house. I would be surprised if the majority of leisure sailors could actually tell you what the floor of a boat is (though I bet most forum members could). In actual fact I usually tell people to chuck things on the deck when I want them to put something down (even when I'm standing on a cabin sole or on floor boards or wherever) so I don't think the exact names matter that much at all as long you can understand each other.

The only nautical terms that really matter to me are the ones that relate to the the location of something so I do like to use and hear port. starboard, forward and aft. They have subtly different meanings to left, right, ahead of us or behind us. It avoids the confusion of of someone telling you where something is whilst they're facing the back of the boat for example. Other than that I try to use the right terms most of the time because I love the terminology and I'm a pedantic git. I wouldn't dream of using it unless the person I was talking to was comfortable with it - the name of the game is communication, not to prove how many obscure words you know.

In reality though, you're as likely to be asked to pull on the red rope with the yellow flecks in as you are to tension the kicker (which some people call a boom vang anyway, even though they're different things). Phrases such as "stuff it up the front somewhere" are also commonly used nautical terms in the real world ("shift your a**e" and "hang on to that a minute" are two other well known nautical phrases). If you find yourself sailing with someone who gets hung up about using the exact terminology I'd find someone else to sail with (and to talk to at parties). If you really want to blow your mind here's a list of nautical terms of which 99% are totally unecessary... http://www.teakmarinewoodwork.com/nautical_terms.htm