Nautical Terminology

[Serin]

Just been reading the newly published colleges, revised for clarification. Lots of explanations - might help damp down some of the hysteria that breaks out here from time to time on that subject.

But it would be a hard job to make sense of the colregs without any understanding of nautical terminology (much of which is, of course, archaic in origin, as are a great many English words in everyday use)

Leading and trailing edge are themselves technical terms, of course, but from a different area of technology.

 

[awol]

A cunningham is an extra control line on a mainsail. It attaches a short distance above the boom and pulls down hard on the leading edge (or luff) of the sail. This has the function of de-powering the sail which is especially useful on dinghies which usually have to facility to reef. It's pretty rare (non-existent?) on ordinary cruising yachts. It's named after the inventor Bruce Cunningham who also took an American racing team to Le Mans during most of the 1950's, first with some adapted yank-tanks and then with sports cars of his own design and manufacture.

I assume you are referring to Briggs Cunningham, millionaire skipper of America Cup winner, Columbia, who failed to win Le Mans. The Cunningham sail control, which I have had on all my cruising Dacron mains, purpose is to move the draft of the sail forward when tightened. According to Wiki, Bruce Cunningham was a player of baseball, a septic version of rounders.
....... but what's in a name?

 

[snowleopard]

Would suggest that part of our retaining this heritage is learning and adopting the terminology used

Learning it - yes. Using it in appropriate circumstances - yes. Using it when the person addressed doesn't understand it - no. Giving an order in technical language when the person addressed may be unable to comply through not understanding - bad seamanship. Using it as a tool to demonstrate your superiority - sad.

p.s. I've been sailing for 57 years and do know the terminology. I'm just particular about when I use it.

 

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

... what chance does somebody starting out have? .

Read Arthur Ransome's 'Swallows and Amazons' -- not only painless, but probably enjoyable.

Mike

 

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
And to finish up with this (for me), I've just gone back and read this thread over again. Here are comments on some of the previous posts --

Bitter words from a person who seems to think it is still a good idea to make boats out of dead trees.

Bitter? No. Better? Yes. Much better to use a renewable source for boatbuilding (as is it for anything else). I take it your own boat is one of the many that are made from oil?

I'd rather have someone who knows what they are doing but uses the wrong words near me than someone who can vomit up the Oxford Dictionary of Ships and the Sea but doesn't keep a look-out.

Me too. Unfortunately, it's often the vocabulary-lacking land-lubber who's also the poor lookout.

Things don't ... go wrong, if you need to take a little more time to describe them.

Oh my goodness! They most certainly can!

... jargon is useful, clear and unambiguous in context.

Now you've got it.

That is all absolutely fine, but if you were talking to someone less experienced you may find it works better to say "Look at the screen with the green wiggly line on it" or "Hang on to the wire which comes down from the top of the big mast on the right hand side".

Ah yes. But now you're in training mode. If at the first opportunity you start replacing with the correct term your long-winded "Hang on to the wire which comes down from the top of the big mast on the right hand side" -- used for the benefit of landlubbers who are presumed to not understand the correct term for whatever it is you mean -- then you can start your trainees on the road to becoming sailors. Otherwise they remain landlubbers.

So for me, part of teaching someone to sail is also teaching them the names of things so that communication is improved.

Spot on.

If you want to understand what the people around you are saying and you want to make yourself understood, you have to learn the language or in this case, its particular vocabulary.
Otherwise you are an obstruction to the smooth and safe operation of the ship.

A most sensible point of view.

A competent skipper is not going to put him or herself in a position where urgent or confusing instructions need to be given to a non-sailor when the boat or its crew' safety are at risk, surely.

One would think not. But it appears that perhaps not all here are competent skippers.

Again, I agree completely, and the key is "teaching them the words".

Well, I agree too. But isn't this what much of this thread has been all about?

... with an inexperienced crew you should be using the correct terminology as much as possible and make a game of it. That way when you should at them to release the main sheet NOW, it might happen!

Exactly.

Someone mentioned the cabin sole, and I think that's quite a good example. In everyday English a floor is the bottom of a room and a sole is the bottom of a shoe. Now which of those does a cabin sole most resemble? And how does cabin sole provide more precision than cabin floor?

As has been noted, a boat has floors that have nothing to do with the sole, and indeed are underneath it. So to refer to a 'floor' when you mean the sole is to talk about a different part of the vessel altogther -- a sure-fire recipe for confusion, and a great example of why the "boaty words" you don't seem to like using are actually well worthwhile learning.

Once again, herein lies the problem. Your leech line now needs renamimg, as does you leech pennant, your leech telltales and your leech battens. You can also no longer use the terms, luffing, luff up, luff pennant, etc. Also, is it OK to use the words boom and reef? ... Semi-permanently in so much as that depending on the conditions it may become the making the back sail as small as posssible without taking it all down leading edge pulling down rope, by way of a quick undo rope end clip attached to the relevant pair of metal rings one each end of a piece of webbing passed through a metal lined hole in the leading edge of the back sail. (Or in unfathomable speak - the reef 3 luff pennant by way of it being snap-shackeld to the relevant luff spectacles).

Thank you.

Some time back Serin said --

But you are just hair splitting and tilting at windmills, so I will leave you to it.

I think he was probably right. I'm doing the same.

Mike

 

[Mister E]

Apologies for taking so long to get back to this but I forgot to look at this thread.
Some interesting replies and thanks to some people for the help. Snowleopard has summed up my thoughts exactly.

There is obviously a need to learn some terms, port etc. But for non racing types a lot of the terms for bits of sails for example could in my opinion cause confusion in times of stress.
Language evolves so why not in sailing? Tradition can also be seen as some sort of superiority and being with the "In crowd".

One example I can think of for strange terminology is "Oilees". I I said to me wife to put on Oilees she would assume I meant a pair of dirty overalls. I know where this term comes from but why not say "Waterproofs"?

 

[NormanS]

I think for waterproofs, you can use any name you like, personally we talk about 'skins.
However for technical names for parts of a boat and its equipment, it is much better if you can try to use the correct terms. My background is in engineering, and that's full of technical language, and I can assure you that you won't get far in engineering if you don't use the accepted terminology. Why should boating be any different?

 

[Serin]

y.

There is obviously a need to learn some terms, port etc. But for non racing types a lot of the terms for bits of sails for example could in my opinion cause confusion in times of stress.

Stress is greatly reduced (for skipper and crew) if all are using the correct words for the objects around them and the actions they need to take.

Tradition can also be seen as some sort of superiority and being with the "In crowd".

Just in sailing, or in any field in which the objects and actions and the words that denote them are unfamiliar?

One example I can think of for strange terminology is "Oilees". I I said to me wife to put on Oilees she would assume I meant a pair of dirty overalls. I know where this term comes from but why not say "Waterproofs"?

Oilies is an abbreviation of oilskins - the correct term for the kind of waterproofs sailors wore before modern materials appeared. In fact, it seems to be in the process of being replaced by the American term "foulies" - foul weather gear. Does that suit you better? When you need someone to help you with the water systems in your house, do you call a plumber? I hope not, as you really shouldn't be using lead pipes anymore.

We all started out once. And most of us gradually learned what the things and actions involved were called and how to communicate smoothly with those around us, first as crew and, for many of us, as skippers. That's what beginners in any field do.

I have been around boats rather longer, even, than Snowleopard, have taught professionally in dinghies, keel boats and large yachts and still sail regularly with lots of different people, including many novices. I have never met anybody who actively wanted to learn sailing and seamanship but drew the line at learning the language to communicate with fellow sailors. Some learn faster than others, but everybody learns.

I don't throw technical terms at people who are just along for the ride or people starting out who need more explanation. As far as I am concerned, that is a straw man - nobody has suggested it. But if people want to sail regularly with others, I do expect that they will begin to learn how to communicate with those others - for their own sakes. And I have yet to meet someone who wasn't interested in doing that. I really wouldn't want to sail regularly with someone who expected me to explain every word and action in non nautical terms all the time, every time - or to "evolve" a new language for everything, when we have a perfectly good one to be going on with.

You have mentioned that you have memory problems. That's hard and I sympathise. But perhaps you should bear in mind that your experience does not necessarily reflect that of the majority of novice sailors. What you call "tradition" is simply a technical terminology with which you are not yet familiar.

Waterproofs are found in everyday life and it really doesn't matter what you call them. But mizzen staysail sheets, clew outhauls, barber haulers, cunningham eyes.......etc. - these are found only on boats. But they too have to have names. We call them by their names because that is what they are called. It no more implies assumed superiority than does the language of the mechanic fixing your car, the lawyer handling your house sale or the lab technician analysing your blood test.

 

[dslittle]

They were generally invented, like all jargon terms, as a quick way of communicating information between experienced people in a field.

Port - the side that lies against the dock
Steerboard - the side that the rather long steering oar sticks out off

 

[trapezeartist]

I assume you are referring to Briggs Cunningham, millionaire skipper of America Cup winner, Columbia, who failed to win Le Mans. The Cunningham sail control, which I have had on all my cruising Dacron mains, purpose is to move the draft of the sail forward when tightened. According to Wiki, Bruce Cunningham was a player of baseball, a septic version of rounders.
....... but what's in a name?

Mea culpa! Yes, Briggs Cunningham. Knowing more about his Le Mans exploits than his Americas Cup stuff just reflects the fact that I have been around motor sport for a lot longer than sailing.

 

[trapezeartist]

Once again, herein lies the problem. Your leech line now needs renamimg, as does you leech pennant, your leech telltales and your leech battens. You can also no longer use the terms, luffing, luff up, luff pennant, etc. Also, is it OK to use the words boom and reef?

In terms of Cunninghams themselves, I wouldn't have said that they are rare on cruising yachts and certainly not non-existent. Most mainsails are be made with a Cunningham cringle as standard and a resonable number are to be seen rigged. I have mine semi-permanently rigged. Semi-permanently in so much as that depending on the conditions it may become the making the back sail as small as posssible without taking it all down leading edge pulling down rope, by way of a quick undo rope end clip attached to the relevant pair of metal rings one each end of a piece of webbing passed through a metal lined hole in the leading edge of the back sail. (Or in unfathomable speak - the reef 3 luff pennant by way of it being snap-shackeld to the relevant luff spectacles).

Simon, it is OK to use any word you like. My OP was never meant to be proscriptive.

Picking up on the luff example is interesting. Luffing is easy (and has no possible alternative that I can think of). I then have to use that to get myself to using the right word for the leading edge of the sail.

Someone else suggested that leading edge is just a technical term from another technology. Perhaps so, but it is an immediately intuitive term.

I never expected the thread to run so long. It must be a sign of the current weather and lack of sailing opportunities. Anyway, despite the disagreements it hasn't got nasty like so many threads do.

 

[Kwik Decision]

I think for waterproofs, you can use any name you like, personally we talk about 'skins.
However for technical names for parts of a boat and its equipment, it is much better if you can try to use the correct terms. My background is in engineering, and that's full of technical language, and I can assure you that you won't get far in engineering if you don't use the accepted terminology. Why should boating be any different?

In general I agree, however even engineers can go too far with "technical" language - I remember reading an article in the Chemical Engineer magazine a number of years ago, where the author talked about deinventorying a tank, and wondered why he hadn't simply emptied it......

 

[Poignard]

In general I agree, however even engineers can go too far with "technical" language - I remember reading an article in the Chemical Engineer magazine a number of years ago, where the author talked about deinventorying a tank, and wondered why he hadn't simply emptied it......

I would have thought he meant selling or scrapping the tank; so that it was no longer listed on the inventory of equipment!

Either way, I bet he was an American

 

[JumbleDuck]

Oh my goodness! They most certainly can!

The word "need" was fairly central to my point. Things don't go better if you use a term which the person you are talking to doesn't understand.

 

[Mister E]

The word "need" was fairly central to my point. Things don't go better if you use a term which the person you are talking to doesn't understand.

That is also what I am getting at, if you add somebody who can not remember some of the terms especially the obscure ones (the list earlier on not covering that many letters). Then you can have people who do not know what you are on about.
Then they are not likely to want to be in that situation again. So even if it is not the correct ancient term but is clearly understood by all it seems to me to be a reasonable idea to use something obvious.
As an example front and back, after all you do use forward or is it forad?

A cabin sole/floor is claimed to cause confusion, so why do the fore and main sails use the same terms for both sails?

 

[Serin]

In general I agree, however even engineers can go too far with "technical" language - I remember reading an article in the Chemical Engineer magazine a number of years ago, where the author talked about deinventorying a tank, and wondered why he hadn't simply emptied it......

Are you sure he was actually talking about emptying it? Maybe he was just taking it off the inventory for some reason. (Still a hideously clumsy word, even if that's the case)

There is certainly a lot of guff around. There's a lot of money to be made for it. But just because a word (or the thing it describes) is unfamiliar, that doesn't make it guff.

 

[Bru]

That is also what I am getting at, if you add somebody who can not remember some of the terms especially the obscure ones (the list earlier on not covering that many letters). Then you can have people who do not know what you are on about.
Then they are not likely to want to be in that situation again. So even if it is not the correct ancient term but is clearly understood by all it seems to me to be a reasonable idea to use something obvious.
As an example front and back, after all you do use forward or is it forad?

You seem oddly determined to be perverse about this and yet in another thread you, yourself, write "I put the dinghy bow first against the stern of the boat"! Why didn't you write "I put the front of the dinghy against the back of the boat"?

Could it be because you are communicating with an audience that knows the correct terminology and therefore you use it as appropriate?

Only a complete imbecile would insist on only using the "jargon" to a total novice but equally only a fool would never learn (or try to learn*) the right terms of reference in a complex and technical environment where a mistake could have unwelcome, even serious, consequences (eg, "I say, would you mind letting that rope over there go ..." thump, ouch as the boom hits the skipper on the head ... "er no I meant that rope (the main halyard) not that rope (the topping lift)"

A cabin sole/floor is claimed to cause confusion, so why do the fore and main sails use the same terms for both sails?

Because the same terms apply to both sails!

As far as sails are concerned, it doesn't much matter technically whether you refer to "leading edge", "trailing edge" or "luff" and "leech". Neither is going to mean a damn thing to a beginner. Since said beginner is going to have to learn a technical term ("leading edge" or "luff", take your pick) they might as well learn the technical term that's been in use since the days of Captain Cook and beyond and which is well known and understood by 99.99% of sailors (excepting the 0.01% of sailors who are determined to be different for the sake of it)

(As has already been pointed out, on a boat a floor is not a flat surface you can stand on, it's the thing the flat surface you stand on, the sole, rests upon! There is no confusion as far as boat terminology is concerned, the confusion arises because "floor" has a different meaning in relation to boats to that with which we are generally familiar)

* Taking into account the post about memory difficulties following mental health issues - as an aside, having been there, it actually helps to try to remember things as a mental exercise (although my inability to remember names, and particularly to link names and faces, is a continuing source of embarrassment and annoyance!)

 

[Serin]

As an example front and back, after all you do use forward or is it forad?

Forward and aft do not mean the same thing as front and back.

A cabin sole/floor is claimed to cause confusion, so why do the fore and main sails use the same terms for both sails?

As has been explained, floor is a technical term for a part of a boat that is underneath the sole. However, a lot of people do now use terms like floor, ceiling, upstairs etc. instead of the more usual terms relating to these things on a boat. They do have familiar equivalents, so there is no problem knowing what they mean. Many other terms do not. They are the important ones.

Different sails are all sails, so it is logical to call them sails, with an adjective to show which ones they are. That is how the English language, on and off boats, works.

What an awful picture you paint. A world where everyone is inventing their own descriptions of the things
around them and the actions they are taking, in situations where mutual comprehension is vital and can even, occasionally, be a matter of life and death. Now, if ever I saw a recipe for confusion......

 

[Serin]

You seem oddly determined to be perverse about this and yet in another thread you, yourself, write "I put the dinghy bow first against the stern of the boat"! Why didn't you write "I put the front of the dinghy against the back of the boat"?

+ 1

I think the best way to learn the language is to sail with people who use it (with appropriate explanations as required). That way, it enters the vocabulary naturally. But I'm not sure how welcome you (Mr. E) would be unless you went aboard with a more positive attitude than you bring here.

 

[Mister E]

I am questioning some not all the use of terminology and its use by some. I have tried to show that it is not always needed to use a word (that has probably changed over the years) when modern language has another term in everyday use.

I do seem to be touching a few nerves with my questioning so it is probably best if I leave this alone.

Enjoy your sailing.