MYBA members differences /the italian way of selling boats

[meracus]

hi
im a little confused about the standard MYBA CONTRACT and the italian interpretation
why would the italian brokers ask you to pay a deposit before putting an offer forward ? is this a common practice ?
why would the italian brokers ask you to pay a deposit before commisioning a full survey ?
why would the italian brokers claim that escrow accounts dont exist in italy ?you know the safety bit !!!! ?
according to the spanish broker ...... offer - response from seller - survey/sea trial/deposit - completion in that order and refusing to complete could be given for any reason since the survey and sea trial all at buyers expense
so how would one buy from italy?, its just seem so ilogical
anybody with a firm and first hand knowledge could chime in

 

[Tranona]

What you describe just reflects different legal systems and business practices in different countries.

The UK process reflects our law and in particular the concept of Trust accounts which support the secure system of using a client account to hold deposits etc. This concept does not exist in Italy, but as in the UK you can use an escrow account. This is legally different from a trust account but still has its uses, particularly in the final handover process.

The Italian practice of asking for a deposit before an offer is designed to deter opportunists and time wasters, but would guess like most things is negotiable. Equally brokers might want to avoid using an escrow account as this would involve a third party lawyer or bank.

If you are going to buy in Italy you have to accept by and large their way of doing things. The attraction for UK buyers is boats may be better value, only available in Italy or intended for use in that part of the world.

There are many on here who have bought in Italy and will no doubt come on this thread. Indeed there is a detailed account of a recent purchase on the next page titled "Buying in Italy" which will answer most of your questions.

 

[meracus]

thanks

 

[MapisM]

The Italian practice of asking for a deposit before an offer is designed to deter opportunists and time wasters, but would guess like most things is negotiable.

Bingo.
Though I'm not sure your conclusion is so IT-specific, actually.
The first time I heard the saying "in your life you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate" I was in the US of A....

 

[petem]

As someone who likes to minimize stress I find the Italian way of buying / selling unacceptable hence I haven't viewed any in that country. Bit of a shame really as there appears to be bargains to be found.

 

[meracus]

the clams pasta usually makes up for it ....... just beware of how they pronounce 18 and 80 !!!!! the hangar i went in last week was full of beautiful machines polished by locals smoking rollies
its really a shame because in the end if you cannot trust the process then you will simply have to settle for a fairline targa in spain

 

[Tranona]

Bingo.
Though I'm not sure your conclusion is so IT-specific, actually.
The first time I heard the saying "in your life you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate" I was in the US of A....

You are right, while the specifics highlighted are IT related, the general proposition is that processes for buying and selling boats vary from country to country. However, if you follow the process it will mostly work. "Enjoyed" the process of buying my boat in Greece, although not paying the fees for the trivial work involved. The 4 euros to the Port Police for the umpteen stamps on the Bill of Sale was OK, but not the 800 euros to the lawyer to make sure there were no delays in the registry!

 

[Portofino]

hi
im a little confused about the standard MYBA CONTRACT and the italian interpretation
why would the italian brokers ask you to pay a deposit before putting an offer forward ? is this a common practice ?
why would the italian brokers ask you to pay a deposit before commisioning a full survey ?
why would the italian brokers claim that escrow accounts dont exist in italy ?you know the safety bit !!!! ?
according to the spanish broker ...... offer - response from seller - survey/sea trial/deposit - completion in that order and refusing to complete could be given for any reason since the survey and sea trial all at buyers expense
so how would one buy from italy?, its just seem so ilogical
anybody with a firm and first hand knowledge could chime in

Here,s the recent thread
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?427520-Buying-a-boat-in-Italy
It's easy to get all official and see negatives at every turn and of course you want yourself in strongest position all the time ,

But they have something you want .
You are willing to hand over €€€ for it ,which they want .

Some one somewhere has to trust t,other and take a risk -otherwise it's a stand off-nowt happens .

This is what I did -not saying its the best or only way but worked for me .
Asked the broker via e-mail to send more pic,s ,asked about service H , asked why it was for sale ,
Then struck up a telephone ( mob ) conservation -we got to know each other - discussed price agreed it before travelling -on the firm understanding it was as described -not hidden horrors .
Broker quote " will you come to view this boat and buy at this price " -the price was a lot less than advertised .
I said yes -but can you arrange to pick up / drop off @ Airport ,and I will need a sea trial ( offered a few 100 € for diesel )
Yes said broker , no need to fund diesel thanks for the gesture it will be a pleasure -sea trial .
We were picked up , ( took a mate who will frighten Vinnie Jones ) .
At sea trial spotted a few thing,s and skipper let me /allowed me to have really good rummage .
Agreed to buy it when we returned from Capri back to Naples -plus remedy a few things -like new risers,anchor chain , antifoul ,anodes + a few more bits and bats .
Was taken to another "family "cousins famous restaurant -wined /dinned on the broker -agreed terms over dinner - 10% deposit I wired next day when home - broker to ensure works done -collect boat -with a del skipper (Naples -Cannes ) in 2 weeks .
Later that evening dropped off @ airport after dropping in brokers house to change cars -cos wife wanted the BMW that PM .
Comes down to trust -some one has to trust t,other -otherwise the world would grind to a halt .
No paper work ,no contract .
Broker sent pics of works
Heres a few -I,ve posted before but all this happened before I sent balance .Now who trusts who I ask ?

Boat taken Aprea Mare ship yard. Lifted - Antifoul -anodes

One of the two risers removed

New one fitted

Back in the water @ ship yard /factory - with del skipper cleaning it -there are more pics buy you get the idea

I wired the balance to a "sister " of the owner at the brokers request 2 days before flying out to collect
Again picked up from air port -
Taken to super market in Pompeii to provision up .
The 4 of us had a good piss up the night before we set off .A cockpit bulb went ,so broker went off into the factory and another appeared .The Passerelle cord was deemed wrong -something to do with elasticity ? -agian broker disappeared into factory and susiquently refitted it with the correct -elastic cord ? .Anchor was not connected properly to 60 M of new chain ,just a shackle ,so broker diss appeared once again and came back with a nice SS swivel and fitted it giving me a lecture on how important it was ?
We just seemed to hit it off .
He still sends me a Christmas card -not joking
I learn,t a lot about "white price " -invioce and "black price " -cash -eg
Broker telephoned another "cousin " who turned up with a fuel bowser -"white price €1.70 /L " or "black price €1/L "-no prizes for guessing how I paid -let's just get this clear they offered two prices .

I think it's down to judging people and asking can I do a deal with this guy -sans paper ,
As you can see from the thread all the official -stuff was done by the broker. - reg docs, ,BOS , guardia finanza wise .

It's really down to trust and some one has to give first .

This is my second MoBo
First I just flew into Bournemouth airport got picked up -whisked toPoole , shown round boat and some of the factory - bought it - on the hard on condition it could be delivered in SoF in 3 weeks
Met mr B -he came over and introduced himself and shook my hand " thank you for buying one of my boats " he said .
Wired the £ - boat appeared in SoF as promised and they arranged a English speaking skipper /instructor -cos I had never had a MoBo before - paper work followed on all correct .
9 years later Sunseeker ,fr sold it 3weeks after I put up for sale .
Again trust from all parties .At each stage there are potentially loads of barriers you and only you can erect .

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

why would the italian brokers ask you to pay a deposit before putting an offer forward ? is this a common practice ?
why would the italian brokers ask you to pay a deposit before commisioning a full survey ?
why would the italian brokers claim that escrow accounts dont exist in italy ?you know the safety bit !!!! ?
according to the spanish broker ...... offer - response from seller - survey/sea trial/deposit - completion in that order and refusing to complete could be given for any reason since the survey and sea trial all at buyers expense

Your Spanish broker may be correct in terms of how brokerage boats are sold in Spain (although that hasn't been my personal experience) but he is incorrect in terms of how brokerage boats are sold in the UK and I'm guessing the rest of Europe. A deposit is usually required after an offer has been accepted but before any survey or seatrial takes place and I've never bought a used boat (13 and counting) without paying a deposit at this stage. However I do agree that demanding a deposit before an offer is put forward is unacceptable and I would walk away from any boat that a broker insisted on selling in this way. As for an escrow account, IMHO escrow accounts are a smokescreen and that goes for the UK and anywhere else for the simple reason that the broker has free access to that escrow account and probably the only sanction for misusing it will be being struck off his trade association, something he won't worry about too much when his business is about to go bust and he has to make his next house mortgage payment

As to how one would buy a boat abroad in as secure a way as possible (I have deliberately not used the word 'safely'), I would always recommend working through a reputable broker in your home country ie in the UK if you live there, a broker who has demonstrable experience of brokering boats from abroad. The main reason for doing this is that your deposit will be held by the UK broker and he will be far more likely to return it if the deal goes pear shaped

So if you are serious about buying a boat abroad contact a few UK brokers now, explain what kind of boat you want and ask him/her whether they would be willing to act for you in any purchase. They might even know of boats available for sale that you don't. If you see a boat advertised in Italy or anywhere else in Europe, do not contact the selling broker but contact your UK broker who will start the dialogue with the selling broker. The UK broker will arrange for you to see the boat and will pass on any subsequent offer. He should help you resist this ridiculous deposit before offer condition and if your offer is accepted he will hold your deposit whilst the survey and seatrial take place. If the selling broker in Italy or wherever refuses to work with this system, then walk away from the boat and it will probably have been for the best anyway

Before the survey/seatrial you should already have discussed what paperwork you require to be provided with the boat on sale and what issues may arise if the boat is subject to a leasing scheme. These are complex issues on their own and I won't go into them here. So the survey and seatrial have gone well and you wish to proceed with the purchase of the boat. It is at this point that you are most at risk because the balance of the money owed will have to be transferred to the selling broker's account and you don't have the boat. So first make sure that your UK broker has made the selling broker understand that the second your money hits his account, the boat is yours and you want to take it away. The selling broker also has to understand that the paperwork you have agreed to be provided with the boat must be shown to you before you will transfer the funds.

So get on a plane and go to the office of the local broker selling the boat. You will probably know him/her quite well by now anyway. You will need to book a hotel for 2/3 nights because it might take this long. Demand to see the paperwork. If it is satisfactory then ring your bank and authorise the money transfer. If it is not satisfactory tell the broker you're not transferring the money until it is. Assuming you are going ahead, get confirmation from your bank that the money has left your account and alert the broker to look out for it in his account. As soon as he confirms that the money has hit his account and this might take 2/3days if his bank is not a large international bank, demand the keys to the boat. Take possession of the boat and if you can move it to another marina or even another country all the better

This is just an overview of what can be a complex and time consuming process but I have bought boats in Germany, Spain, Holland and Italy this way. Btw the one time that I slipped up was when I didn't demand to see the paperwork before transferring the money and accepted sight of photocopies instead

 

[petem]

the clams pasta usually makes up for it ....... just beware of how they pronounce 18 and 80 !!!!! the hangar i went in last week was full of beautiful machines polished by locals smoking rollies
its really a shame because in the end if you cannot trust the process then you will simply have to settle for a fairline targa in spain

Hmmm, perhaps I just need to "grow a pair"! If you see an AZ39 nicely polished in a hangar with a For Sale sign on it let me know!

 

[meracus]

Deleted User
Thanks, got on the plane three times so far to Italy ( Naples, Puglia and last week to Porto Ercole ), the boat I want ....... broker insists I pay a deposit before submitting the offer, I have seen the paperwork and quite satisfied with the condition of the boat ( the description ).
I just can't get my head around insisting on the deposit before ( got asked again about wiring the money at the airport )
on this particular boat ..... it sent up to the hill so fast that the only way forward is to pay for a sea trial/survey ..... see if the boat is legit then proceed, I would rather lose 3k then 15k euro
petem , I have even put aside some money for your fenders and lettering, I've seen alfamarines, azimuts, Atlantis, italcraft ,Mochis and the likes at what appears to be very decent prices ..... sometimes the brokers didn't even know the boats at all and only tantamounts to a guy with a smartphone !! but yes .... med boats aplenty

 

[petem]

Cool and thanks regarding fender socks and letters. When you've settled on a boat, measure the available space for the letters. Customers are often surprised when I tell them that their 150mm letters will result in an overall width of 3m!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

hi
im a little confused about the standard MYBA CONTRACT and the italian interpretation = FORGET THIS
why would the italian brokers ask you to pay a deposit before putting an offer forward ? is this a common practice ? = NO
why would the italian brokers ask you to pay a deposit before commisioning a full survey ? = Normal procedure everywhere
why would the italian brokers claim that escrow accounts dont exist in italy ?you know the safety bit !!!! ? = True gets a bit complicated you can still send money to the notary you will use

according to the spanish broker ...... offer - response from seller - survey/sea trial/deposit - completion in that order and refusing to complete could be given for any reason since the survey and sea trial all at buyers expense = Never heard this. Each time I bought for clients from Spain they always want a deposit after we agreed on price, and before survey. Yes you still pay for yard fees and so on.
so how would one buy from italy?, its just seem so ilogical
anybody with a firm and first hand knowledge could chime in

See answers in caps.
The real difference is that in Italy the deed needs to be done by a notary or else you will not get a deletion certificate from the capiteneries.
If I remember well if you go SSR you do not need a deletion, but as a peace of mind I would still go that route.
Before the deed you need to apply for a Nullo Osta (permission to delete) it is like a letter confirming the boat is free from encumbrances. Like that the deed of the notary can make more sense.
Nullo Osta takes about one month to be issued. I am saying an average of Capiteneries, Rome takes one month, Genoa took 2 week, Spezia 1 week. These are some of my recent experiences.

A notary costs 1500 EUROS upwards to about 2500. You can do a deed cheaper about 1000 EUROS or a bit less at a public office, for this depends how helpful the broker you are using wants to be and your time costraints.

 

[mparrish]

From my experience (see other thread already mentioned) , that is not how it worked for me. As Portofino and others have said, you have to have a degree of trust - but you have to build that. Certainly I made my offer and had verbal and email agreement to that prior to any deposit being paid. There are risk points throughout the deal being done, but you need to build that trust between you, the broker and the vendor. I'm not saying it's an easy purchase route, but in our case we certainly got a good boat, significantly cheaper than I could have bought in the UK.
We agreed price, drew contract up (with some changes to reflect the vendor and my requirements), paid deposit, had survey/sea trial, renegotiated price (down) after findings of survey, paid second deposit (because thats how the vendor wanted it, but that was non-standard), got Nulla Osta and other paperwork sorted, I paid the balance and took the boat away on the same day. The full deregistration certificate (removal from the Italian register), did take some time after all of that, but the time seems to vary depending on the location of registration.

Looking back over our purchase it was not all plain sailing, or easy, but I would certainly do it again. I think I was fortunate with the broker I was working with as others (Whitelighter) had a very different experience with another broker.

I will get to the end of my tale in the other thread, but work is a bit time consuming at the moment.

Good luck.

 

[petem]

Mike, I'm enjoying your thread! Incidentally, what proof that VAT was paid did you end up with?

Pete

 

[Portofino]

Mike, I'm enjoying your thread! Incidentally, what proof that VAT was paid did you end up with?

Pete

The fact it was reg in the first place on the IT reg and later dereged

As a private individual it's my understanding ( happily to be corrected ) that proof of vat paid is needed to reg the boat .

This was a lease back scheeme owned by a Co and leased back by the owner which attracts a lower vat rate .Common place were that difference makes it worthwhile .

So vat is / was paid -then the Co sold the boat and that Co inorder to dreg the boat would have to account for any vat due -presumable -guessing before the Nulla Ostra was issued ( that's the temp cover note that reffered to in the link above ) .,and certainly before any "irradiation of the flag "-dereg to us .

 

[petem]

P, as per many of our previous discussions, what you say is correct however the original VAT invoice is desirable for some purposes. I was curious to know if MikeP got this or was content with the Dereg stuff as indeed Jez and others are.

 

[Whitelighter]

On any boat bought under a leasing scheme (as any are in Italy/France) then there is no original vat invoice as vat wasn't paid.

Where countries have a much more robust registration system than the UK the registration itself can prove tax paid.
In my case, I got a certificate if de-registration from the French stalked by customs as 'TVA Paid'

Much better than a 20 year old faded invoice from a broker who may no longer exist in my book.

 

[Portofino]

"robust registration system" -well put
In countries where this exists like Italy and France + others ? -brokers when asked by Brits the very same question you ask Pete you see a facial expression of "here we go agian another numpty Brit -why do I bother "
They do bother to explain it to you and are puzzled why you asked in the first place .
How ever they are not looking at it from our seemingly unregalated none compulsory ,none boat annual tax going forwards Brit position -hence the frustration .
One for HenryF
Picture the scene a nice 1992 C2 cab -3 owner , 72 K miles ,all Mot,s known to H for the past 15 y -service book up to date ,accident free etc .
A mature 50 something chap rocks up on the pitch ,in a S500 -looking a bit of somthing for the week end -walks around said C2 -
Henry,s a bit short staffed today ,holidays,sickness ,paternity issues ,so after about 15 min gets up to make contact with potential punter .
H,s says what ever he normally says as an opening gambit -sniffing a sale

The punter immediately retorts
"can I see the original VAT invoice "
It's just not going to happen -cos of a robust reg system waaaaaay back when the car left the Porsche dealer along with car tax etc.
Imagine the look on H,s face ,that's the look Brits get with Italian brokers Broker stares at the decals .

I have a dereg cert from Roma port -mine was bought of a private individual .

 

[Tranona]

P, as per many of our previous discussions, what you say is correct however the original VAT invoice is desirable for some purposes. I was curious to know if MikeP got this or was content with the Dereg stuff as indeed Jez and others are.

The only reason we are fixated with the idea of having the original VAT invoice is because in the UK that is the only document HMRC will recognise as evidence for UK purchased boats. If a boat is originally purchased in another country VAT is not the responsibility of HMRC but the state in which the transaction took. HMRC will therefore accept whatever is considered evidence in that state.

As others have said the formal compulsory registration systems normally ensure that this evidence is clearly shown.

Buyers from other states looking to buy in the UK would be equally bemused by our "system", particularly the lack of formality and the difficulty of establishing documentary evidence of a boat's history.