Shiver Metimbers
Well-Known Member
I have successively made an offer on a yacht subject to a survey. What will the surveyor be looking at? I have asked for an Insurance type survey and asked the broker to arrange including the lift out.
My offer accepted subject to survey.
- Thread starter Shiver Metimbers
- Start date
Sanderling_
Well-Known Member
Whoaa there.
Who is the broker working for? By all means get him to organise the lift out but choose your own surveyor. If in doubt who to choose, ask anyone but the vendor or his agent.
Who is the broker working for? By all means get him to organise the lift out but choose your own surveyor. If in doubt who to choose, ask anyone but the vendor or his agent.
Shiver Metimbers
Well-Known Member
Its a Surveyor I have chosen, but asked the Broker to make contact and arrange timings to coincide with lift out etc. I also stressed that I would like to be there too.
solar
Well-Known Member
That's what I did and all went great.
Yes,be there with surveyor...you'll see & learn a lot.
Good luck!
Yes,be there with surveyor...you'll see & learn a lot.
Good luck!
SmileyGiley
Well-Known Member
Make sure you let the surveyor know what you are looking for in the yacht. If you want a balls out racer he will pay particular detail to sails etc. If you want a family cruiser he will focus issues you may not have considered, such as provision of showers, heating, pressurized water etc. You don't want to start your racing campaign realizing you need a new main, and you don't want to blow your marriage when the missus finds she has to break the ice to pee in the bucket!
You may have researched the particular make of yacht quite considerably, and may have heard rumours of issues commonly found. Chances are your surveyor will know of these too, but there's every benefit in mentioning to him/her what information you have gleaned... if only so he can give you peace of mind by specifically checking that matter during the survey.
Expect that there is a lot he won't do... check behind headlinings etc.
I just bought a yacht from south Wales to take to north Wales. I paid for a surveyor local to me to do the survey (it cost me extra fuel & a nights B&B). The bonus is that now the remedial work he pointed out (allowing me to reduce the price appropriately) is being done under his supervision at little extra cost... and I can easily follow up other items with him over the coming years. The extra cost was 100 quid or so, the peace of mind that I now have an experience head to refer to has already paid off. Also you get the peace of mind (tho I don't want to sound like I'm casting aspersions on the surveying fraternity) that he's your guy, and not someone cozy with the vendor's agents. This is a heart not head thing, but as what you are paying for is peace of mind as well as a professional appraisal of your tub it may be worth it.
You may have researched the particular make of yacht quite considerably, and may have heard rumours of issues commonly found. Chances are your surveyor will know of these too, but there's every benefit in mentioning to him/her what information you have gleaned... if only so he can give you peace of mind by specifically checking that matter during the survey.
Expect that there is a lot he won't do... check behind headlinings etc.
I just bought a yacht from south Wales to take to north Wales. I paid for a surveyor local to me to do the survey (it cost me extra fuel & a nights B&B). The bonus is that now the remedial work he pointed out (allowing me to reduce the price appropriately) is being done under his supervision at little extra cost... and I can easily follow up other items with him over the coming years. The extra cost was 100 quid or so, the peace of mind that I now have an experience head to refer to has already paid off. Also you get the peace of mind (tho I don't want to sound like I'm casting aspersions on the surveying fraternity) that he's your guy, and not someone cozy with the vendor's agents. This is a heart not head thing, but as what you are paying for is peace of mind as well as a professional appraisal of your tub it may be worth it.
Kurrawong_Kid
Well-Known Member
I think you should ask for a "prior to purchase" survey, not an insurance one! The surveyor will search for all faults, not just those of a seaworthy nature. Prior to purchase surveys are accepted by insurance companies but they do cost more. You then try and get the faults rectified by the new owner or the price reduced and you get the repairs organised. You may have to agree to pay about half the defects correction because of betterment.
A
Anonymous
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Make sure you let the surveyor know what you are looking for in the yacht. If you want a balls out racer he will pay particular detail to sails etc. If you want a family cruiser he will focus issues you may not have considered, such as provision of showers, heating, pressurized water etc.
[/ QUOTE ] That's not what an offer subject to survey means.... If you want a surveyor, or a mate to advise you when you are looking, that's fine, but the idea is that you are basically making an offer 'as seen and represented' so unless the surveyor finds something that wouldn't be expected the purchaser would be expected to complete. Typically, hull defects, previous accident damage, poor maintenance, bodged repairs, serious technical problems with electrical system, rigging problems, deck problems, hull problems, prop problems. As for the sails, you would normally have been expected to look before you made the offer unless that wasn't practicable.
Make sure you let the surveyor know what you are looking for in the yacht. If you want a balls out racer he will pay particular detail to sails etc. If you want a family cruiser he will focus issues you may not have considered, such as provision of showers, heating, pressurized water etc.
[/ QUOTE ] That's not what an offer subject to survey means.... If you want a surveyor, or a mate to advise you when you are looking, that's fine, but the idea is that you are basically making an offer 'as seen and represented' so unless the surveyor finds something that wouldn't be expected the purchaser would be expected to complete. Typically, hull defects, previous accident damage, poor maintenance, bodged repairs, serious technical problems with electrical system, rigging problems, deck problems, hull problems, prop problems. As for the sails, you would normally have been expected to look before you made the offer unless that wasn't practicable.
matelot
Well-Known Member
You have a good background to do a pre survey check yourself - I've never yet had a boat surveyed where I havent had to point something I'd spotted out to the surveyor and ask him about it. Its not that they are careless, its just that you have more time to do the job yourself. So go over the boat with a fine toothcomb looking for faults.
The surveyor cannot do things like take down headlinings to check behind, and if the boats out of the water he cant start the engine. He wont climb the mast either. So dont deceive yourself that the surveyor will find everything, or that you can claim on him for any fault he didnt see. You would have to prove negligence to do that.
And be realistic - a second hand boat isnt a new boat so you cannot expect perfection. A chat with the surveyor after you have received his report will give you an idea of the faults that matter as opposed to cosmetic or wear and tear type things. But wait until afterwards - no one works well with someone else hovvering over them asking endless questions.
The surveyor cannot do things like take down headlinings to check behind, and if the boats out of the water he cant start the engine. He wont climb the mast either. So dont deceive yourself that the surveyor will find everything, or that you can claim on him for any fault he didnt see. You would have to prove negligence to do that.
And be realistic - a second hand boat isnt a new boat so you cannot expect perfection. A chat with the surveyor after you have received his report will give you an idea of the faults that matter as opposed to cosmetic or wear and tear type things. But wait until afterwards - no one works well with someone else hovvering over them asking endless questions.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Ask for a full survey. Most surveyors reckon that you will save the cost of the fee by knocking down the price by the things they find. We 'made' about £800 profit from our survey. He found things I would have missed for sure like a leaky stainless holding tank (previous owner paid for a new one to be fitted), and a couple of other things. But as I said in the other post, basically you have bought the boat once you have made the offer unless there is something materially wrong.
This happened to us.....
We'd seen a really smashing [deleted to protect identities] 40 at Falmouth, that had just come back from the Med with delivery crew. We went out for a trial sail and she was in lovely nick so we made an offer 'subject to survey'. We'd been told that she was in perfect condition -- all equipment working and that fact had been agreed with the broker (honest people, Tara at Ancasta at Falmouth). We paid the deposit and got a local surveyor to do a full survey at about £800, ISTR. He found that the keel was loose - surveyor (who was also a boat mechanic/hobbyist) tried to tighten it and Mary the engineer came over to help as well. Between them they couldn't get the keel quite right. The hull had very high moisture content despite having been gelshielded but the hull was covered with two dozen or so coats of old antifoul that came off in your fingernails. Apparently it would have cost a thousand at least, to strip. The instruments were B&G and one of them was defective. The engine was found to have water in the engine oil and we found out that she had been pooped by a following sea on her way back, forcing water up into the exhaust.
The owner refused to have the B&G instrument replaced so we would have had to pay £500 or so to have a matching suite (he offered to put some cheap Nasa product in instead but that wasn't acceptable as the panel would have looked naff). We got the ?Perkins dealer to look at the engine and he said that a complete strip-down would be needed to determine the condition. Several thousand including taking out and putting back. Then, suddenly, the dealer said that it wasn't necessary and all it needed was an oil change. Eh? Why the change of opinion? It turned out that the previous owner had employed the dealer!! Skuld...?? At this stage we'd had more than enough of this nonsense and I told Ancasta that we were pulling out. Ancasta were as good as gold and returned our deposit but the owner put it about locally that we couldn't afford to complete /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif It cost us £800 but we saved buying a can of worms. The owner had seemed like a really genuine honest sort and the yacht had looked (to me and the broker who I trust) terrific. It certainly pays to have a full survey. Oh, finally, the owner wanted compensation for re-anti-fouling the patches the surveyor had removed as we had not used the correct colour antifoul -- yet the entire bottom was peeling off like old orange skin! "On yer bike", I says.
Get a good broker and a good surveyor.
This happened to us.....
We'd seen a really smashing [deleted to protect identities] 40 at Falmouth, that had just come back from the Med with delivery crew. We went out for a trial sail and she was in lovely nick so we made an offer 'subject to survey'. We'd been told that she was in perfect condition -- all equipment working and that fact had been agreed with the broker (honest people, Tara at Ancasta at Falmouth). We paid the deposit and got a local surveyor to do a full survey at about £800, ISTR. He found that the keel was loose - surveyor (who was also a boat mechanic/hobbyist) tried to tighten it and Mary the engineer came over to help as well. Between them they couldn't get the keel quite right. The hull had very high moisture content despite having been gelshielded but the hull was covered with two dozen or so coats of old antifoul that came off in your fingernails. Apparently it would have cost a thousand at least, to strip. The instruments were B&G and one of them was defective. The engine was found to have water in the engine oil and we found out that she had been pooped by a following sea on her way back, forcing water up into the exhaust.
The owner refused to have the B&G instrument replaced so we would have had to pay £500 or so to have a matching suite (he offered to put some cheap Nasa product in instead but that wasn't acceptable as the panel would have looked naff). We got the ?Perkins dealer to look at the engine and he said that a complete strip-down would be needed to determine the condition. Several thousand including taking out and putting back. Then, suddenly, the dealer said that it wasn't necessary and all it needed was an oil change. Eh? Why the change of opinion? It turned out that the previous owner had employed the dealer!! Skuld...?? At this stage we'd had more than enough of this nonsense and I told Ancasta that we were pulling out. Ancasta were as good as gold and returned our deposit but the owner put it about locally that we couldn't afford to complete /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif It cost us £800 but we saved buying a can of worms. The owner had seemed like a really genuine honest sort and the yacht had looked (to me and the broker who I trust) terrific. It certainly pays to have a full survey. Oh, finally, the owner wanted compensation for re-anti-fouling the patches the surveyor had removed as we had not used the correct colour antifoul -- yet the entire bottom was peeling off like old orange skin! "On yer bike", I says.
Get a good broker and a good surveyor.
SmileyGiley
Well-Known Member
Ho hum Lemain....
Never said that's what subject to survey meant. RTFP. Then again, I'm as guilty, as I missed out that the OP had selected the surveyor, not gone on vendor's agents suggestion.
All I was doing was pointing out a couple of issues about my experience with two recent surveys. Both times I got a fully professional assessment of the condition of the hull, fittings etc. Second time around I got far more additional information out of the surveyor(same gent), as he had an idea what I was looking for in the boat. For example he pointed out some issues with 240V leccy that little fingers might get into - knew we had little'uns and wanted a family tub. I think the term 'fair condition' for a mainsail will have a very different meaning depending on the intended use. Some people will by a second hand main that is in fair condition for cruising once it's been retired from racing.
Never said that's what subject to survey meant. RTFP. Then again, I'm as guilty, as I missed out that the OP had selected the surveyor, not gone on vendor's agents suggestion.
All I was doing was pointing out a couple of issues about my experience with two recent surveys. Both times I got a fully professional assessment of the condition of the hull, fittings etc. Second time around I got far more additional information out of the surveyor(same gent), as he had an idea what I was looking for in the boat. For example he pointed out some issues with 240V leccy that little fingers might get into - knew we had little'uns and wanted a family tub. I think the term 'fair condition' for a mainsail will have a very different meaning depending on the intended use. Some people will by a second hand main that is in fair condition for cruising once it's been retired from racing.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I don't think it's the surveyor's job on a survey to consider what YOU want to do with the yacht. If you have made an offer subject to survey then the question is whether the yacht was fairly represented when you made the offer. If you have put down an offer on a stiff racing yacht and you are a novice with a small family and want a comfortable easy to sail cruiser, then it's your mistake and all you can do is make your peace with the vendor and hope he'll let you back out without too much in the way of cost.
tabernacleman
Well-Known Member
The survey will report to you the condition of the boat in the surveyor's opinion, but as previously stated, nothing above head height, engine not run, instruments not operated, hull not tested for being water tight, sails not flown to see if blown out, /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif a pre purchase survey can include some very nit picking points which if the insurance company view, they might insist on being remedied prior to commision, /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif so for example, multihull - no escape hatches in event of capsize - FM how do you install escape hatches in a prout hull /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif - but once pointed out its there in B&W : things change, and what was acceptable H&S wise 20 years ago might be very much considered 'dangerous' to a young keen surveyor. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif I once spent many hours with a surveyor who was going over a yacht I had bought without survey, he was doing an ins, survey for me, he spent about two hours with a toffee hammer going over every inch of deck (GRP) boat in good order etc. I asked him what he was looking for? 'Delamination' was his reply. Oh, what can I do if you find it then? 'Nothing' he says. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif On another occassion I had not seen the sails and asked for specific report on them, 'Appear in good order' says report. I buys boat and the first thing I see is a very long UV strip which is shredded, and cost £500 TO REPLACE, and a brand new light genoa that wont fit up the luff groove
e mail to surveyor and FULL refund of fee, /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif but now worried as to what else didn't he see, I know he didn't see were the previous owner had put a circular saw through the hydraulic line to the steering while fitting an inspection hatch but he did see a minute bit of silicone above water line instead of a grommet, I now need to dismantle the steering cables and try to find a grommet that fits /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Be carefull
e mail to surveyor and FULL refund of fee, /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif but now worried as to what else didn't he see, I know he didn't see were the previous owner had put a circular saw through the hydraulic line to the steering while fitting an inspection hatch but he did see a minute bit of silicone above water line instead of a grommet, I now need to dismantle the steering cables and try to find a grommet that fits /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Be carefull
A
Anonymous
Guest
It hasn't been mentioned in the thread, but a surveyor worth his salt should have indemnity insurance. Your claim against the surveyor is not limited to his fee.
gjgm
Well-Known Member
I agree with Lemain on much of this.
While there are some common types of survey, its pretty much up to the surveyor to decide what he does or doesnt look at. Also, there isnt much point in paying him to check easy things that you can check, or that you would use yourself in the course of using the boat. So instruct him as to what you want him to do. When you get a written report it was also say what hasnt been done- which is a bit late if you wanted that included !
However, you have now agreed to buy the boat, subject to the surveyor discovering something that you could not have been expected to identify from your own checks. Its usually not a good idea to use the brokers surveyor. In fact under the brokers members association (YBSD or something), I think they are not supposed to make suggestions, as it could lead to a question of bias.
There is no required qualification for a surveyor, though many do have so. Thats why its best to find your own, and one with specialist familiarity of the type of boat that you are buying. I have had some good surveys, and some that frankly I could have written myself standing 20ft from the boat.
While there are some common types of survey, its pretty much up to the surveyor to decide what he does or doesnt look at. Also, there isnt much point in paying him to check easy things that you can check, or that you would use yourself in the course of using the boat. So instruct him as to what you want him to do. When you get a written report it was also say what hasnt been done- which is a bit late if you wanted that included !
However, you have now agreed to buy the boat, subject to the surveyor discovering something that you could not have been expected to identify from your own checks. Its usually not a good idea to use the brokers surveyor. In fact under the brokers members association (YBSD or something), I think they are not supposed to make suggestions, as it could lead to a question of bias.
There is no required qualification for a surveyor, though many do have so. Thats why its best to find your own, and one with specialist familiarity of the type of boat that you are buying. I have had some good surveys, and some that frankly I could have written myself standing 20ft from the boat.
jordanbasset
Well-Known Member
Hi,
just arranged a survey this week for next week. Went with recommendations from this forum on the surveyor we used.Did speak to a number of surveyors and was surprised (my ignorance) to find the difference in emphasis they gave to the survey.For example one went into detail about the importance of checking the sails,but could not give much reassurance on engine checks.The one I went with seemed to be much more rounded in their aproach, including a compression check on the engine. I went with him,as although a novice to big boat owership I can check a sail easier than an engine. Survey due next week and hoping all goes well
Good luck,hope your survey goes well
just arranged a survey this week for next week. Went with recommendations from this forum on the surveyor we used.Did speak to a number of surveyors and was surprised (my ignorance) to find the difference in emphasis they gave to the survey.For example one went into detail about the importance of checking the sails,but could not give much reassurance on engine checks.The one I went with seemed to be much more rounded in their aproach, including a compression check on the engine. I went with him,as although a novice to big boat owership I can check a sail easier than an engine. Survey due next week and hoping all goes well
Good luck,hope your survey goes well
PeterGibbs
Well-Known Member
If you know your way round a boat, you do the cosmetic survey yourself - ie condition of fittings etc If not, then get the surveyor to check the lot.
Basically, the surveyor is most useful in checking the structural integrity of the boat - this is the big ticket item. It will cost less just to have this surveyed. A full survey will go to many pages of inventory that is good for his fee but probably less use to you.
No surveyor will go hard on the drive gear - he can't get into it so won't vouch for it. He also won't climb the mast to verify the top gear. You either do this yourself, get an engineer / rigger in to cover these items or rely on judgement.
Surveying is not a black and white issue. A boat that's a few years old will show signs of wear - to be expected. But has it been well maintained? The surveyor will help you form this view. If not well maintained, move on - the problems will become apparent all too soon!
It will probabaly have some moisture in the hull, not a reason itself for ditching the purchase unless the signs of breakdown -osmosis - are visible. The rudder will probabaly be pretty wet, etc - again not a reason for walking away.
I always judged a boat in part by the owner's outlook - chatting with him will give you confidence he is not hiding anything, or otherwise!
Good luck,
Peter Gibbs
Basically, the surveyor is most useful in checking the structural integrity of the boat - this is the big ticket item. It will cost less just to have this surveyed. A full survey will go to many pages of inventory that is good for his fee but probably less use to you.
No surveyor will go hard on the drive gear - he can't get into it so won't vouch for it. He also won't climb the mast to verify the top gear. You either do this yourself, get an engineer / rigger in to cover these items or rely on judgement.
Surveying is not a black and white issue. A boat that's a few years old will show signs of wear - to be expected. But has it been well maintained? The surveyor will help you form this view. If not well maintained, move on - the problems will become apparent all too soon!
It will probabaly have some moisture in the hull, not a reason itself for ditching the purchase unless the signs of breakdown -osmosis - are visible. The rudder will probabaly be pretty wet, etc - again not a reason for walking away.
I always judged a boat in part by the owner's outlook - chatting with him will give you confidence he is not hiding anything, or otherwise!
Good luck,
Peter Gibbs
A
Anonymous
Guest
When I bought my present yacht, I had a full survey and paid the surveyor to come out for a sea trial. My offer was subject to survey and satisfactory sea trial. The sea trial was not for us to decide whether we liked the yacht's behaviour at sea, of course, but to allow us to check the engine and propulsion gear under load, mast, sails, winches, anchor, etc., all under operating conditions. As it happened, the sea-trial did not show up any unacceptable defects but I don't regret the decision. The previous owner, broker, surveyor and us went together. We had a great sail, actually, and all enjoyed ourselves. As soon as we tied up we completed the sale.
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
It hasn't been mentioned in the thread, but a surveyor worth his salt should have indemnity insurance. Your claim against the surveyor is not limited to his fee.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perfectly correct, but the survey isnt a guarantee as such. There will be lots of items that are impossible to check, and even on those where it is possible for the surveyor to check it has to be clear that checking them was part of the deal and he was negligent in the way that he did it and that you lost out as a result.
And then , when something goes wrong, he has to be sue-able. I once hired a surveyor over the phone only to find when the survey arrived that it was presented by a gibraltar registered company. Now this survey was a good one and there was no question of claiming against the man (I'd use him again) but if I had wanted to claim, could I have sued in Gib? Would the company have the necessary assets?
It hasn't been mentioned in the thread, but a surveyor worth his salt should have indemnity insurance. Your claim against the surveyor is not limited to his fee.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perfectly correct, but the survey isnt a guarantee as such. There will be lots of items that are impossible to check, and even on those where it is possible for the surveyor to check it has to be clear that checking them was part of the deal and he was negligent in the way that he did it and that you lost out as a result.
And then , when something goes wrong, he has to be sue-able. I once hired a surveyor over the phone only to find when the survey arrived that it was presented by a gibraltar registered company. Now this survey was a good one and there was no question of claiming against the man (I'd use him again) but if I had wanted to claim, could I have sued in Gib? Would the company have the necessary assets?
A
Anonymous
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Perfectly correct, but the survey isnt a guarantee as such. There will be lots of items that are impossible to check
[/ QUOTE ]I agree. Let me give you an example of a household survey. I bought a nice house in Cornwall with a large Jotul 8 woodburner. I had a full survey. In the survey the report said that the surveyor had not inspected the chimney but had viewed it from the outside visually, with the aid of binoculars and that it was satisfactory. That was standard wording, I don't suppose that the pillock even knew that there was a chimney because....
When we moved in I called a sweep. This was not an ordinary sweep but a graduate sweep who was interested in all things to do with fires...we had an original 19th Century Cornish range in full working order. Anyway, he took one look at the chimney for the Jotul and said that would never work. There was a large block on top of the chimney that would prevent a proper draught. The smoke would come straight back in...indeed we had smelt a smokey smell from day one. He checked -- took two minutes to remove the inspection hatch -- and he said that the chimney must be lined or it a) wouldn't work properly and b) was dangerous. Must not be used. The price was thousands.
I got onto the surveyor and he wriggled and squirmed and refused....so I booked the contractor to come and do the chimney lining and wrote to the senior partner to tell him that this bill was going to land on his desk which he could either settle or see me in court. The senior partner had not been informed about this problem and meanwhile the surveyor had gone on holiday, ignoring the matter.
The next day I had a phone call from the senior partner to say that we were speaking with the contractor, agreed with the work and would pay 100%. I don't believe that the senior partner did that because he was a nice guy; the point was that anyone calling himself a surveyor should have spotted that the Jotul woodburner was not properly installed - after all, it took the sweep less than a minute to know that it wasn't right.
Perfectly correct, but the survey isnt a guarantee as such. There will be lots of items that are impossible to check
[/ QUOTE ]I agree. Let me give you an example of a household survey. I bought a nice house in Cornwall with a large Jotul 8 woodburner. I had a full survey. In the survey the report said that the surveyor had not inspected the chimney but had viewed it from the outside visually, with the aid of binoculars and that it was satisfactory. That was standard wording, I don't suppose that the pillock even knew that there was a chimney because....
When we moved in I called a sweep. This was not an ordinary sweep but a graduate sweep who was interested in all things to do with fires...we had an original 19th Century Cornish range in full working order. Anyway, he took one look at the chimney for the Jotul and said that would never work. There was a large block on top of the chimney that would prevent a proper draught. The smoke would come straight back in...indeed we had smelt a smokey smell from day one. He checked -- took two minutes to remove the inspection hatch -- and he said that the chimney must be lined or it a) wouldn't work properly and b) was dangerous. Must not be used. The price was thousands.
I got onto the surveyor and he wriggled and squirmed and refused....so I booked the contractor to come and do the chimney lining and wrote to the senior partner to tell him that this bill was going to land on his desk which he could either settle or see me in court. The senior partner had not been informed about this problem and meanwhile the surveyor had gone on holiday, ignoring the matter.
The next day I had a phone call from the senior partner to say that we were speaking with the contractor, agreed with the work and would pay 100%. I don't believe that the senior partner did that because he was a nice guy; the point was that anyone calling himself a surveyor should have spotted that the Jotul woodburner was not properly installed - after all, it took the sweep less than a minute to know that it wasn't right.
