Moving lines to cockpit

[lustyd]

Hi all, having just bought a small yacht where no lines seem to be led back to the cockpit I plan to rearrange things. Unfortunately, despite an instructor once going through various names of bits on a boat, I've never been told what the various bits are for this job.

I'm guessing here, but I believe I need:

• blocks at the base of the mast
• fittings with round plastic holes to guide back to cockpit
• clutch (?) to hold rope next to cockpit

If someone could furnish me with the actual words I'd be very grateful - I promise I'm better at the actual fitting part!!

Also, there seem to be many, many types of "blocks" (I like to think of them as pulleys ) with different fittings and options - is there a specific one I need at the bottom of the mast? I also plan to fit roller reefing this summer although amazingly that looks a lot easier to achieve as there's only really one item to buy.
If PBO are reading, an article next month on refitting a small yacht would go down very well indeed...
Thanks again
Dave

 

[Tranona]

Bartons are a popular supplier of the gear to do this job on a boat your size. Their catalogue and website have schematics and guidance on how to do it.

 

[Kelpie]

There have been one or two threads recently about leading lines back. Maybe it's what curious minds devise whilst we cannot go sailing.

At the foot of the mast, yes you need some blocks, just basic ones really (not 'fiddles, 'beckets' etc). Mine are all on swivels which helps ensure everything lines up but that might not be crucial.
Next you need either a 'deck organiser' (a series of pulley wheels- sheaves- fitted in a line) or a number of 'fairleads' or 'bullseyes' (cheaper, but will have more friction) which divert the lines back towards the cockpit, where you secure them using clutches, jammers, or cleats, of your preferred type. Spring action clutches are the best, but also the most expensive. If you don't need to winch in any of the lines, you can just make them off on a normal horn cleat, which is cheap, effective, and kinder to the rope.

Hope this helps!

 

[lustyd]

Thanks guys, forum to the rescue again!

 

[jakeroyd]

Just a thought.
Have a look at how your lines exit from the base of the mast.
They should exit with a sheave each , low down so the deck organiser can be used , one each side , to divert them rearwards.

 

[PetiteFleur]

Why do you want to do this? My first two yachts didn't have lines led to the cockpit, the third did and the cockpit was always full of ropes and my current yacht has all the lines at the mast, as my first two boats which I now prefer. I work on the KISS principle nowadays.

 

[VicS]

The boat in question is a Vivacity 20?

The fact that the mast is in a tabernacle on the much lower forecabin roof is I think going to make this more complicated than it would be if the roof was not stepped or if the mast was on the higher part of the roof. i am surprised others have not noted this ... maybe they have not bothered to find a picture of the boat!

Before you start plan carefully how you will route the halyards etc. use the minimum number of turning points to keep friction to a minimum and use blocks , not the bullseye fairleads you are suggesting. Be sure the halyards run fairly onto the blocks esp the deck organiser.

You will not be able to take the halyards etc to the very foot of the mast as they would then have to be brought back up to the level of the cabin roof with big increases in friction.

Ensure all blocks and the clutches fastened to the cabin top are securely bolted through backing pads to spread the load. Use penny washers under the nuts also

Id suggest you don't do it initially .. see how you get on with everything at the mast.

I take it the roller reefing mentioned is the foresail not the mainsail, I hope so as slab reefing is miles better for the mainsail. Dont overlook the fact that the sail will need to be modified to suit and if it is not in good condition it will be far more sensible to get a new one specifically made for the reefing spar.

Make sure you read and fully understand the fitting instructions for the reefing before you start.

 

[lustyd]

Thanks for this VicS, I had been wondering about the height difference. I think I may get away with using the top bolt on the tabernacle to affix the blocks. This is roughly in line with the coachroof.

The roller reefing is indeed for the headsail, and it will be a new headsail when it goes in. I've not decided what to do with the main in terms of reefing yet as I assume there's no room inside the boom to put ropes and such

Here's a pic of the bottom of the mast/coachroof:

 

[charles_reed]

Thanks for this VicS, I had been wondering about the height difference. I think I may get away with using the top bolt on the tabernacle to affix the blocks. This is roughly in line with the coachroof.

The roller reefing is indeed for the headsail, and it will be a new headsail when it goes in. I've not decided what to do with the main in terms of reefing yet as I assume there's no room inside the boom to put ropes and such

Here's a pic of the bottom of the mast/coachroof:

I would go along with Vic, in suggesting you go at this slowly.

Points to bear in mind, not yet touched upon:-

1. The fixing of the base-of-mast pulleys need to be re-inforced considerably - the loads on them are @ 45degrees to the horizontal.
2. Expect to have to use about x2 the force at the cockpit that you'd exert at the mast - for this reason I'd suggest having easy access to a winch or winches.
3. Headsail reefing line - lead it, via bullseyes, along the base of the stanchions with a thumb-cleat (that has one horn longer than the other), by the cockpit side-combing.
4. Don't assume you can lead the reef-line inside the boom - you need pulleys fitted in the ends - instead look at putting single-line reefing outside the boom.

Lastly, when you do decide to go ahead, draw it, mock it up on the boat, before you make a hole, buy any components or decide it's desirable.
IMHO on a small a boat as that, unless you intend single-handed offshore sailing, the only things I'd bring back to the cockpit are reefing lines - leave the rest at the mast.

 

[Madeo]

IMHO on a small a boat as that, unless you intend single-handed offshore sailing, the only things I'd bring back to the cockpit are reefing lines - leave the rest at the mast.

But then you end up with a system that's 'nowt nor summat' - you have to go to the mast foot anyway, for the halyard and to hook on the reef, (and sometimes more than once, as it invariably unhooks when you're not looking!) so why not do everything from there while you're at it?

I've just put everything back to the mast for this reason...

 

[VicS]

Thanks for this VicS, I had been wondering about the height difference. I think I may get away with using the top bolt on the tabernacle to affix the blocks. This is roughly in line with the coachroof.

The roller reefing is indeed for the headsail, and it will be a new headsail when it goes in. I've not decided what to do with the main in terms of reefing yet as I assume there's no room inside the boom to put ropes and such

Yes turning blocks on the tabernacle is the way to go I am sure. Whether or not using the pivot bolt is the best option I don't know.
Remember that the blocks will have to take up an angle that leads the halyard etc to the side as well so that it can then run between the hatch and the hand rail..
Not clear if your halyards are inside the mast or outside. If inside you will almost certainly have to alter the exit arrangement.

If you intend converting the mainsail to slab reefing its not necessary, if even possible, to run lines inside the boom on a small boat . Fit a reefing kit consisting of a couple of special cheek blocks on a short track to the boom and simply run the reefing lines forward from that.

this is a three block fitting


This is a two block system on a similar sized boat



You don't need the track but it enables you to get the position of the blocks correct. If you fix them on the boom directly then you have to be sure to get them in the correct positions from the outset!

I assume that you will be routing the reefing back to the cockpit too. This means that you will presumably need a single line system. You wont be wanting to go to the mast to hook the reefs on to ram's horns.

You don't say what headsail reefing you are considering. Plastimo? If so consider the relative merits of the turnbuckle vs the chainplate options before you buy. The former will fit the existing forestay and retain the bottle screw. also make sure you get the halyard lead from the top of the sail to the masthead sheave correct. The Mast mounted fairlead is the better option. The diverter wheel on top of the spar is necessary if you are not dropping the mast.

Chain plate option ( no bottle screw) requires a longer forestay



Turnbuckle option ( retains the existing bottle screw) can be fitted without lowering the mast

 

[lustyd]

I think I may need to invite yiou down to Emsworth Vic! that's all very useful thanks again for your help. The changes to sails and lines will be a couple of months time once I recover from the other various expenses of buying the boat so hopefully by then I'll have had time to fully plan everything. I expect once I'm stood on deck it'll either become much clearer or much more confusing

 

[prv]

I would go along with Vic, in suggesting you go at this slowly.

Me too. There were all kinds of mods I planned to make to Kindred Spirit when we bought her, didn't due to lack of time, and after a season's sailing have realised were unnecessary at best, ill-advised at worst.

Presumably someone was sailing her, as currently rigged, until you bought her. So it is possible. It might not be a bad idea to sail as-is for a bit, then make your changes based on experience rather than conjecture. Admittedly that's complicated by the fact that now would be a good time to change things before next season.

IMHO on a small a boat as that, unless you intend single-handed offshore sailing, the only things I'd bring back to the cockpit are reefing lines - leave the rest at the mast.

I'd go the other way - on a bigger boat things can stay at the mast, because it's more stable, easier to get around, and you're more likely to have crew. For a long time I was suspicious of having everything led aft, but that was because I tended to sail on 35 - 42 foot boats with lots of people to spread the charter price.

Now I sail a 24 foot boat, often on my own, it's invaluable. I can hoist all sail standing in one place, steering with my bum on the tiller. I can reef in no time flat, and you do a lot more reefing on a smaller boat. On some points of sail (downwind-ish) I can't go forward, because my weight on the side-deck upsets the balance of the boat to a point that the tillerpilot can't cope with. The lines also have less far to go, fewer blocks and fairleads, less friction. The loads are less (also less friction) and so the blocks you do need can be smaller and cheaper.

As has been said, halyards and reefing lines need to go to the same place, whether it be mast or cockpit. If you have reefing horns rather than tack pendants or single-line, then it has to be the mast.

Pete

 

[prv]

The fact that the mast is in a tabernacle on the much lower forecabin roof is I think going to make this more complicated than it would be if the roof was not stepped or if the mast was on the higher part of the roof.

Actually, I think it might help. It'll let him use normal blocks anchored to the lower coachroof (or the sides of the tabernacle somehow) so that the line comes off the block at the right height to run flat along the upper roof. A long shackle or two ought to put it in the right place, depending on the size of the block. This is how KS's turning blocks work.

Pete

 

[kds]

Think twice !

Many years ago I completed a vivacity from a kit and sailed and raced it from Emsworth for 3 years.
It is a light, simple boat which sails particularly well for its age, keels and length.
I had such fun in that boat !
Don't complicate it.
Do check the cabin roof - is it strong enough to take the forces you will be applying to it ?
Yes - you will need a winch if you are to get the main up tight after the halyard has gone round even more blocks. each with its attendant friction.

There is one important job that should have been done on the rig by now - check if you have a single lower shroud going to a chain-plate aft of the main shroud. If so - the mast will bend backwards in a blow - just when you want the opposite ! Some of us just swopped the shrouds ( yes - there is a weakness ) and some put an extra lower shroud going forward of the main shroud (as you will find on most boats ).
Does yours have a broom handle aboard ? If so - it is to put under the mast step when beating. The laminated crossbeam under the tabernacle is just not up to the job !
Without it, you will never get a tight luff !
Ken

 

[VicS]

There is one important job that should have been done on the rig by now - check if you have a single lower shroud going to a chain-plate aft of the main shroud. If so - the mast will bend backwards in a blow - just when you want the opposite ! Some of us just swopped the shrouds ( yes - there is a weakness ) and some put an extra lower shroud going forward of the main shroud (as you will find on most boats ).

Absolutely! A very unsafe rig I would IMO.

With single lower shrouds I would expect to find aft swept spreaders (pivoting probably) with the cap shrouds taken to chain-plates, or whatever, aft of the mast. Tension in the caps then induces forward bend in the mast. (The spreaders may well be shorter than one would normally expect)

This was a common rig for small boats in the 1970s and similar to the way in which many dinghies are rigged. Like dinghies some did not have back-stays.

Replacement masts often lead to the spreaders being squared off. That's the time to add the extra pair of lowers.

My own boat has aft swept spreaders with the cap shrouds lead aft and the lowers in line with the mast.

 

[lustyd]

That is indeed the layout of the shrouds (the boat is the one Vic posted a pic of previously).
There is a wooden pole beneath the mast but far more sturdy than a broom handle.
Adding shrouds sounds like a quite complex job - is this the case or does it just involve attaching to existing parts and adding a chainplate?

 

[VicS]

That is indeed the layout of the shrouds (the boat is the one Vic posted a pic of previously).
There is a wooden pole beneath the mast but far more sturdy than a broom handle.
Adding shrouds sounds like a quite complex job - is this the case or does it just involve attaching to existing parts and adding a chainplate?

Someone has fitted a decent compression post! Its not an uncommon thing to have to do with some of the older small boats.

An extra shroud is not an excessively complex thing to do. I cannot see in the picture how the bottom ends are fastened. Whether to plates passing behind the rubbing strakes and bolted to the hull moulding (the one on this page is like that) or to U bolts through the deck.
Provided the hull/deck joint is strong then bolts, with backing pads, would be a simple solution ( my rigging is attached to U bolts anyway)

Some modification for the top will be necessary I quess but exactly what depends on the existing fitting

Again, although I dont like it, it has survived for many years like it so it is not something I would rush to alter.

 

[lustyd]

That's a good point, it's 10 years older than I am so I guess reasonably robust. Thanks for the pic, I can see more clearly what needs doing in that one but like you say I may leave that for nect year.
Cheers
Dave

 

[Pussersmate]

Dave,

Without wishing to appear glib, sail her as she is first and get the feel for her, you might just like her as she is and save yourself an awful lot of hassle for no tangible benefit.

I have exctly the arrangement that you would like to have, on my Moody 30, it's a pain in the ass, the winches fail to get the main up that final (all crucial) foot and I invariably have to go to the mast anyhow, hoisting the main on my boat (a Moody 30) is a 2 man job, it shouldn't be but it is. Due mainly to her age and good old fiction!

The only real plus is that you might b able to control your sails from the cockpit, but don't bank on it, as you might not!

Cheers and good luck.

Geoff