Moving from the dark side!

[Haven't-a-Clue]

I've largely decided to make the move from mobo to sail (gasp!) and I've largely settled on a lift keeler circa 28ft as something that I can (wi' a birra trainin', like) manage solo, mebbe with SWMBO crewing now and then If I can persuade her that heeling is not unusual! I'm looking at the Odin 820 and the Tide 28 as I'll be trying to buy new or nearly new. The eventual plan is for something that can do X channel and hopefully the Med for some occaisional overwintering. Now I know that the Tide 28 is rated cat B and the Odin cat C, so it would seem that the T28 is the obvious choice, but I'm a little concerned about the low transom which Sailng Today said might be a problem in a following sea. So, should I be worried about this? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Also there is a (for me, anyway) considerable price difference, and I happen to prefer the internal layout of the Odin, dunno why, really, 'cos there isn't that much difference, but it just seems roomier (which where SWMBO is concerned) is VERY important! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif So my other question is....... if permanent internal ballast was added to the Odin, would it make it more seaworthy and closer to a cat B rating? As you'll have gathered, I really haven't a clue(!), so when you've all stopped slapping your thighs and saying things like "I don't BELIEVE he's actually asking this" /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I'd be everso gratefull for some useful feedback. As you realise by now, I'm not gonna be on an unlimited budget, unless our numbers come up this evening, so perhaps my choices of vessel might seem understandable. I might add that having read these forums voraciously for a year now, I REALLY don't /forums/images/graemlins/mad.giflike the idea of a small inboard diesel engine of limited power, 'cos there just seems to be no end of problems from the 'bug' to stern glands and everything in between thes two places, so it's an outboard of medium size (50-70 hp) and I ain't gonna change my mind on this! I look forward to being shot down in flames, fire suit and parachute ready! Seriously, I need the input, so fire away! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Searush]

There is a good reason (no, there are several!) why most sailboats pack an inboard rather than an outboard. I have had both and will try to list pros & cons objectively;
Pro
No hole in stern
No prop dragging in water when sailing (if o/b can lift)
Engine easy to access & service
Con
Much higher fuel consumption in general
Battery charging is generally much poorer
Access for starting/ adjustments underway are really difficult
Swamping is much more of a risk
Most importantly of all; having the engine right at the stern means that it will come out of the water in short steep seas (wind over tide) which is when you really need it to stay in the water.

I would not contemplate an outboard if there was ANY chance of an inboard.

A 26' yacht will reach its displacement speed with about 15hp, but most will have about 25-30hp which will be ample! Most of the power of a 50-70hp o/b will be wasted, plus it puts a huge amount of weight on the stern where it is least wanted - especially if you have a low counter.

Don't read too much into the posts about disasters on here. Disasters are entertaining, but the thousands of people who who have successful trips don't post.

Crossing the Channel can be done in just about anything - Canalboat, amphibious cars, bathtubs, etc with good weather. Either of your chosen craft are likely to be well capable of it, although I don't know them.

Why not look at slightly older yachts, where most depreciation has taken place, then if you don't like it you will get much of you investment back.

I suggest you need to go out on a few boats to get a better idea of what might be suitable before committing loadsamoney.

 

[Haven't-a-Clue]

AY up, thanks for that, although I ought to point out that both Odin and Tide say that they are designed to take O/B's of this size and will under the right conditions will manage 18 & 16 kts respectively. I wasn't thinking of the disasters, as you put it, but the hassle of that kind of maintenance associated with inboards and holes through the hull, filter maintenance and the fact that I know my way round petrol engines quite well, whereas I know the theory of diesel engines and not much else! As far as the fuel consumption is concerned I intend to sail as much as possible, but I like the idea of being able to scuttle to safety at speed if I need to (read, if SWMBO gets nervous!), so I wouldn't be using the engine at full chat for any length of time, except in the above circumstances. My current boat, a MF625, seemed to cope quite well with temporary submersion in a short steep sea as you mentioned, so either I'm FAR too sanguine about such things (probably! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif), or modern engines seem to cope OK. It's the cat B-C thing I'm worried about most, as in crossing Biscay en route to the Med. But Many thanks for your thoughts, they've definitely given me something to mull over. Cheers.

 

[Bajansailor]

The Tide 28 has been sailed across the Atlantic in tandem by the Builder and his son, so I guess that proves that they are reasonably seaworthy.

Dare I suggest that you have a look at a MacGregor 26 as well?

 

[BlueChip]

I know someone who had an Odin that capsized and inverted on Loch Lomond, he was lucky not to lose his daughter who was trapped below or any of his family who were with him at the time.
After this accident and subsequent legal action Odins were fitted with substantially more fixed ballast to increase their stability - make sure you get one of these or IMHO buy something else.

 

[clouty]

I agree with Searush. Absolutely spot on.

Why not join your local yacht club, and twist some arms for invites on other people's boats before putting down the cash? It's not just the purchase price, it's the moorings and maintenance too. As I am sure you well know (sorry).

Sailors love to turn a newbie on to their passion. Don't be shy!

Ability to drink a few pints of beer an advantage.

 

[sailorman]

Look @ a Hunter Delta

 

[damo]

"Dare I suggest that you have a look at a MacGregor 26 as well?"

I know of at least one experienced seaman who wouldn't cross the Bristol Channel in one, never mind Biscay!

 

[MJT]

I don't want to intrude but I have sailed across the Bay of Biscay to Gibraltar on a sailing cat. delivery job and sailed my own cat down to Cyprus and I would like to advise that you not to even think about crossing the Bay in a cat C. boat unless you have someone with you who has a huge amount of experience and commonsense - and who is a lot braver than me. Believe me, there is nothing very great about frightening yourself let alone your SWMBO. The French Canals would be a better option but still a serious proposition in a cat C. boat, IMHO.

 

[MJT]

By the way, West Wight Potters have been sailed across the Atlantic, too but I'm not coviced that proves anything as the builder was extremely experienced ...

 

[Pete7]

[ QUOTE ]
I've largely decided to make the move from mobo to sail (gasp!)

[/ QUOTE ] Congrats, we made the move 6 months ago and don't regret it. As Searush suggested we too bought slightly older but in tip top condition. Now the lifting keel I can understand but not the large outboard. Do you really need to travel at planning speeds because if not how about one of these. It will take a day to cross the channel, but it took 6 hours in our rib last time /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif There is a picture somewhere of one of these parked on a beach, we needed a bit more room for the kids in the end so choose the Moody.

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/TEM158

Pete

 

[Bajansailor]

I would generally agree with Searush and the other posters above - they have issued very sound advice - but our lad here obviously does not want to do dramatic aquatic 'cold turkey' in his transition from power to sail, hence why he wants one of these motor sailer types that is sort of half way between a 'conventional' sailing cruiser and the motor boat he currently has.
I can see his point - and for a moboman in transition it must be comforting to know that he can still open up the throttle and do 15 knots, rather than a WOT speed of say 5 or 6 knots.

I agree with your comment above re West Wight Potters - I wouldnt want to cross the Atlantic in one. But a Potter (or more?) has crossed, similarly a couple of Tide 28s, while we have also recently heard tales of supposedly seaworthy (re their ratings) yachts being abandoned in mid Atlantic for various reasons.
And yes, I know that this does not imply that the Potter and the Tide are more seaworthy than the AWBs that were abandoned.....

 

[FullCircle]

Very rarely in nature is there a successful mating of two species to create a superior one.

What you have is a compromise of a sailing boat and a power boat.

Power boats have hull shapes developed over years to optimise their intended purpose of going quickly and comfortably.

Similarly, sail boats have a completely different shape and design philosophy borne of years of experience for cruising or racing, all fairly slowly.

The boats you mention, and the Macgregor are a hybrid of those ideas, and perform both functions but in a compromised way. They are neither super efficient sail boats, nor decent power boats.

Thats not to say that you wont enjoy them, and I dare say they are a very attractive proposition for crossing over one way or the other from power and sail, probably giving you a warm feeling of comfort because it is something you know. I think that they are good if you continue to enjoy trailer sailing and towing the boat away each weekend, but you will soon find the limitations frustrating.

I would consider a used model, as you may get your money back if/when you decide to move on.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Haven't-a-Clue]

Thanks for the link didn't see what engine it had, I'll look harder. Re Merle-OH, I would NOT take an unmodified cat C across the Bay of Biscay! hence the question of extra ballast or other mods to upgrade. I do wonder what people did before the RCD came into force, though. Damo, I have looked at a MacGregor but didn't like it and of course, I believe it's a cat C (I could be wrong). Thanks to everyone who has taken the trouble to reply to what, in retrospect, does seem a daft post!

 

[Haven't-a-Clue]

Fred Drift: "our lad here". You know, I'm 49 this year, but I feel like a kid who's just pretending to be an adult and I'm living in terror of the day someone finds me out! Daft isn't it. Full Circle , thanks for your comments, I hope you get to your boat tomorrow, how many miles do you get to the brownie point! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Seriously, the Tide 28 is a lightly modified (ie extra ballast and such) proper sailing boat, so I guess it will go as well as any other cruising boat, you can view Sailing Today's review on the website, www.tide28.com (sorry, I've no idea how to post a link). I'm thinking about one BECAUSE of the trans Atlantic trip by the 14 year old (son of the designer, talked to him at EC, nice guy).
(Edit) Well bu@@er me, it links itself by the look of it, am I a berk or what! Answers on a post card to.......... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[photodog]

Okay, some great advice so far, and I am gonna be even more direct.....

Repeating Full circles advice, you will end up with a B*****
combination of power and sail if you go for the Odin. It will do neither well, and will be more dangerous than if you had either a proper yacht or a proper powerboat. Adding more ballast is a non starter and will undoubtedly lead to a death trap. IMHO.

The Tide, is a better option, but is a Expensive boat for what you get. I will come back to this point......

Lobbing some stonkin great 50-70bhp outboard on the stern is a solution looking for a problem, its going to be expensive to buy, and expensive to run. Your familiar with petrol engines, deisel is the same with half the parts.
I have NEVER felt the need for more speed in our yacht, this hangup with wanting to have both a power boat and a yacht is defeatist and will ensure you have neither.

YOu say that you will not use the engine much because you will sail as much as possible... err, if you buy either of those boats and stick a great big lump of iron on the stern,, you will not be able to sail well and will end up motoring more. The boat simply will not preform as well, and probably wont go to windward well, and will have a lot of weight aft and will be poorly balanced and will be a pig in a following sea... etc..

Resale; Neither of these boats are popular in the resale market, (The Tide that crossed the atlantic fetched 35k at auction for a worthy cause, £5k less than the new price....)
You will lose a whack on the Odin... (Other opinions may be available...) and believe me if you get into the sailing you will want to dispose of that boat like a bad rash...

Now if yu are talking new Tide Money, then actually there are a lot of great boats available for that sort of cash,

Try one of these...

Probably cheaper than a Tide......

Lift keel...etc.

By the time you get the Tide kitted out you will have spent more than a new Bavaria 31... which is Category A and is a good new starter boat...

For 40k you can buy a shedload of high quality proper sailing boat sub 31 feet, with excellent reliable engines, loads of space.. etc....

I was very fortunate, when we made the change over from power I did a shedload of chartereing, and my opinion over what I wanted in a boat changed totally.... so sail in more boats, charter some in the med or uk or caribean, get your dayskipper... etc....

And to help out, you are more than welcome to come down this summer for a sale with us in Plymouth... drop me a pm with your email if you want too...

So, pretty opnionated, /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Haven't-a-Clue]

Congrats on your 1000 posts, I feel suitably chastised ( in the nicest possible way, of course! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif) and will give serious thought to your advice. Re the outboard thing, I just really prefer them, but can see that maybe 50-70 hp might be overdoing it, designed for it or not! Re the Bav, don't they have a teeny problem with keels? Couldn't see a price for the Delphia, but looks nice. What RCD cat is it, 'cos I couldn't see that either! Must be the wine, I'll look again tomorrow. Cheers all for the advice.

 

[photodog]

Nah, the racing Bavs had a issue, but not the cruisers, the Delphia is Cat B, the 29 is only 48k......

But really, get some sailing in on charter, and youll feel more comfy with something maybe 3/5 years old....
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[hlb]

I'm not getting involved with the raggy thing, they know far more than me. But I have done some.

Forget your strange notion, that some how, outboards never need servicing or new filters. But inboards do.

The truth is, inboards tend to do 100's of hours a year, where as outboards are rarely used.

The view that outboards are more reliable, is just plain daft. There built for short term use. Not crossing chanels or going to the Med.

 

[Clyde_Wanderer]

Dont let your boat take the hump, remove the lump.
When a displacement hull starts going over its designed speed it just lumps up the water in front of it, the faster you try to go the more the water lumps up, until you get to the stage where you cant go any faster but can burn up lots of fuel which is by now just getting wasted.
I have a 5hp outboard on my 30ftr and it will push her at 5.5kts in slack water, which is not a lot less than the 20hp inboard.
I would say a 9hp would be fine for the Tide.
Good luck.