Motorboat Newbie's Change Of Direction

[petem]

R, regarding my VHF comment, I didn't mean if facetiously. It might seem daunting and everyone thinks they'll make a prat of themselves but you build self confidence very quickly.

I think your main challenges are:

1) getting a boat that's not been used for two years reliable again
2) learning to navigate the thing. Go on a day skipper course and this should be fine.
3) Learning to park the boat. Get a joystick system fitted if you intend to single hand.

Whilst these things are all very doable, personally I would avoid doing loads of upgrades at the same time. Don't worry about redundancy, a hand held plotter / VHF will give you that.

So on a scale of 1 to 10, VHF is well down there as a 1 or a 2 and you need to focus your thoughts / energy on the critical stuff.

One final point, being at Sea shouldn't be frightening or terrifying. The advice you've been given is being given to prevent this from becoming so.

 

[TOKOLOSHI]

On his VHF course I cannot believe that he will be "Mike shy":encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

Mapism, what you describe isn't a feature of hydraulic thrusters; it's a feature of an undersized pto pump or pumps.

Agreed. My first comment on this topic was just in reply to Piers, when he said that hyd thrusters are much more efficient than electric, which also ain't a feature of hydraulic thrusters per se.
They can be, if compared to poor or undersized electric thrusters.

 

[Portofino]

I thorough the VHF license was a legal requirement to operate a VHF ? ( happy to be corrected? )
This thread bears a few similarities with my start to mobos.
I bought a mooring to get a decent return on the capital in 2003 .

After 2 years of great returns. I got a letter from the management Co reminding me article/ clause xyz , words to the effect something about limiting buy to let “ when are you bringing YOUR boat to the mooring “.
The clause was to prevent investors buying up moorings “

Sunseeker were very abliging - cut to the short story 1 month later I stood in the Arie d Boom ship yard with a boat in the slings 1-30 pm after flying in earlier with family .Boat was trucked from Poole .
2pm lunch over guys unwrap it launch it. Check it , rebuild the radar arch etc .

4 pm my pre - arranged EN speaking guy turns up ( negotiated in the deal back in the U.K. )
I had never had or operated a Twin outdrive ,just a small sailboat ,so I new the col regs etc and a small outboard training boat some time ago doing my French “ Permit d Mer “ but that’s all .

Also added complication of Med stern to mooring ,
Any how I had 3 days 10 - 4 —- 1 to 1. Whole lot , berthing , anchoring ,emptying the holding tank , everything to let me loose .
With the VHF , I managed to get a guy to come one day to the house in the U.K. ,from memory £80 .
When he arrived he said ask your wife to sit in .He set up all his radios in the dining room .
3 hours later we both passed and now we both have the VHF cert , wife’s never used on since btw ,but tipping out her cert in a stuffed doc,s folder to French officialdom looks good .
We have been stopped 3 times in the Sunseeker never in the Itama ,by the French .Once by Italian Gardia De Finanza when the boat was still IT reg day after a bought it — they were keen .

Point is everybody starts somewhere and tbo ,it’s pretty easy ,just organise something .

 

[petem]

Yep, illegal to use a VHF without a license in the UK. I went on a three night course at a local sailing school but you can do it online and go to a registered examiner for the exam. No doubt you could pay someone to come to you if money isn't an object. But it's one of those courses that nobody fails, a bit like Day Skipper used to be.

 

[Portofino]

I had a chuckle @ the MTB vid ^^^ .
We look at that with a warm glow of “ we won the war “ etc .
The fact is those boats where crap , real crap .
Spitfire may have been superior manoeuvre wise to the Meselschitte BF 109 — and won the air battle ,but our MTB,s were due to Admiralty lack of appreciation to hull design useless in a chop .
They were flat bottom virtually zilch deadrise at the stern ,Sure a fine ish entry .
This mean,t they had to slow down in a chop ,due to slamming and often miss aimed the toroedos or just sprayed machine gun ammo randomly .Bit like asking the lads to shoot while bouncing up n down on a trampoline

imagine trying to drink a cuppa in a chop going fast , now try accurate shooting .
Massive Petrol engines ,guzzled fuel ,added weight ( fuel ) = often triples to boot .

Mean while in the Elba delta our enemies thought it through .
The E boat was a twin diesel ( part of the later MAN group ) , and more importantly a deep V hull .
This ment , they had range but more importantly hitting and fire power in a chop as well as speed .
Ours were only effective in calm seas there’s could work in big seas .

That little bit of our war history is best hidden ,the hull design of our MTB,s is best buried .German E boats won that little battle .

 

[jfm]

Agreed. My first comment on this topic was just in reply to Piers, when he said that hyd thrusters are much more efficient than electric, which also ain't a feature of hydraulic thrusters per se.
They can be, if compared to poor or undersized electric thrusters.

Yup, all agreed:encouragement: Good electric and good hydraulic thrusters are good. Crummy electric and crummy hydraulic thrusters are crummy.

As a v general comment, mobo electric thrusters around the 20-24m mark tend to be too-low voltage DC jobs, and against those hydraulics tend to be better if specced correctly. Higher voltage electric thrusters as found in superyachts are of course excellent

 

[pks1702]

Very well said P , I hope you are all well, Kind regards.

All good PM sent

 

[Piers]

Yep, illegal to use a VHF without a license in the UK.

When I started boating many years ago, I was astounded at the lack of licensing necessary to drive. Being a BOAC/BA pilot where everything had to be licensed,' I found it hard to believe. And then I found I had to take a VHF course! Hang on, I already VHF and HF licenses, but these weren't applicable. So, not only astounded by no boating licensing, but bemused by having to take a VHF course...

 

[rafiki_]

When I started boating many years ago, I was astounded at the lack of licensing necessary to drive. Being a BOAC/BA pilot where everything had to be licensed,' I found it hard to believe. And then I found I had to take a VHF course! Hang on, I already VHF and HF licenses, but these weren't applicable. So, not only astounded by no boating licensing, but bemused by having to take a VHF course...

Yes, we are a bit different to our Eu neighbours, where an ICC is a cost of entry. Mine had to be declared to the Harbour Master in Lefkas.. However, despite a VHF license being mandatory, how well do you think it is policed? You hear very few users on VHF adhering to the standards as taught by the RYA. Anyone ever had their license checked?

 

[MapisM]

As a v general comment, mobo electric thrusters around the 20-24m mark tend to be too-low voltage DC jobs, and against those hydraulics tend to be better if specced correctly. Higher voltage electric thrusters as found in superyachts are of course excellent

That's a generalization I can agree with.
20 to 24m boat are indeed large and heavy enough to push 24V DC motors to their limits, while still too small to have AC running 24/7 (let alone 3-phase AC).

Just for the records, the two T575 I was talking about, even if heavy-ish in comparison with most P boats, are well below that size.
Btw, I forgot to mention that you possibly know the one with hydr thrusters, which as I recall is now based in PV.
If you'll have a chance to try her thrusters, even just while docked and with the engine idling, I'm sure you also won't be impressed.
Still MUCH better than nothing, mind, but not impressive anyway.

 

[IDAMAY]

That's a generalization I can agree with.
20 to 24m boat are indeed large and heavy enough to push 24V DC motors to their limits, while still too small to have AC running 24/7 (let alone 3-phase AC).

Just for the records, the two T575 I was talking about, even if heavy-ish in comparison with most P boats, are well below that size.
Btw, I forgot to mention that you possibly know the one with hydr thrusters, which as I recall is now based in PV.
If you'll have a chance to try her thrusters, even just while docked and with the engine idling, I'm sure you also won't be impressed.
Still MUCH better than nothing, mind, but not impressive anyway.

Back to your previous question MapisM - unfortunately my stabilisers aren't zero rate, the boat being of 2003 vintage. They are ABT Trac as are the stabilisers and run from the same hydraulic pump with take off from either engine. They move 27 tonnes and a lot of windage sideways in most conditions.

 

[MapisM]

They are ABT Trac

Bingo.
The boat I tried had all Wesmar stuff, and even if the brand alone obviously doesn't tell anything ref. size/power, I bet that your ABT components were better sized for the boat needs! :encouragement:

 

[londonrascal]

You only have to watch a few TV programs following the R.N.L.I when people call in distresses and initially there is a lot of time wasted because they have not followed the correct procedure or given the right information and so on. I've read similar in Marine Accident Investigation Reports but should the terrible time come, in a flustered fearful state it would be easy to forget crucial things so having a laminated card with what to say only then requiting the missing parts to be said such as your location, nature of emergency and number of crew etc.

What bothers me is the moment I take hold of a radio set (PMR) I loose the ability to talk in a flowing manner. It is like I have gone from normal English I've spoken all my life to some sort of stammer. That is before I have got to even use the Phonetic alphabet so I am quite certain where I am concerned a failure of the course is high up on the cards. That said, I think the real reason such courses and licenses are needed is nothing more than to make the everyday person stop and think what responsibility they have when transmit using such - without it that is lost.

Something of a worry mind you, is the wide range of very cheap radio sets that one can get on Amazon which can transmit on many frequencies in the UK which require a license to do so, but since these are sold next to and at a price point similar to PMR radios many I think presume they can buy it, charge it up and go like any 'walkie talkie' unaware what frequency they may be on.

Despite that, and someone raising the point about having their license checked, if Ofcom take little action to Pirate Radio Stations, are they really going to take much with people using VHF without a license?

 

[londonrascal]

By the way...I hope this does not happen on my own boat:

You're going along happy as Larry and suddenly you smell burning, then smoke begins to creep out from gaps in the floor. As ever the camera carried on and I learnt a lot form this experience, not least best not to have gone lifting up the engine panel.

It turned out to be a Victron Argofet Battery Isloator had self destructed and had then sent 70 odd Amps of power down a thin wire it should never have gone down, and from their took out the charging part of the Victron Quattro Inverter!

 

[MrB]

What bothers me is the moment I take hold of a radio set (PMR) I loose the ability to talk in a flowing manner. It is like I have gone from normal English I've spoken all my life to some sort of stammer. That is before I have got to even use the Phonetic alphabet so I am quite certain where I am concerned a failure of the course is high up on the cards.

It's funny because i was like that when i started to learn to fly at flight school. I used to get quite anxious before I called or replied to ATC. One day i was quite bad and my instructor made me shut down the plane and drove me to the tower to meet the controllers to prove they were just people, they took the pi55 out of me. After meeting them when i was flying they took the pi55 out of me all the time because i was the only English guy at the school and it became a standing joke "Limey" wants to land, "Limey wants to taxi/takeoff" etc. They used to mess about with me and make me "Go around" when i was on short final and they became a pain in the ar5e lol. However, it did prove they were only human and it isn't as strict as you think, when you get that into your head it becomes easy and natural, like you are on camera now. Phonetics just come with practice so don't worry about it.:encouragement:

 

[Bouba]

Had a lovely day boating, did a perfect Med mooring, the wife lassoed the pontoon cleat. I was so proud of her

 

[BroadAmbition]

Well, I've had a most enjoyable time reading this thread. Took me three cups of coffee to get to the last post from the initial OP's first one.

Sometimes my eyebrows have done a 'Double Six' other times, yes I did indeed LOL (Not sarcastically I will add). More interesting reading forthcoming.

As the Rascal normally says:- 'More as it Happens'

Griff

 

[londonrascal]

I have had such a long day but time to just post an update before I go to bed.

So this morning I duly went along to the Marina, met the Broker and did the final signing of papers and after taking the keys she was all mine - GULP - the very kind gentleman who owns the company that have looked after her under the last owner duly arrived, and we got on very well. He explained how much had been done to her cosmetically, from a refit of the interior in part to the wet bar/BBQ and all new upholstery, carpets, the list goes on and on. Now he is the owner of company and could be keen for my business, he could have said to me how such and such should be looked at, or the previous owner never got around to fixing that slight fault but I recommend that we take care of this for you. Not a bit of it.

He explained how the previous owner was a very honest and straight man and really was a case of if it needed dealing with it was and the money was paid up - not a cost cut bodge being done. He then proceeded to talk to me for over 2 hours about the boat from bow to stern and the systems as we went, and allowed me to film it all for reference.

The thing was as we went along I thought she really is a large boat with such a complex management system, from the fly by wire throttle system to the sheer size of everything - masses of kit is overbuilt to live up to that 'little ship' feel. But lets take the engines, I knew they were stone cold so it was going to be interesting how they would fire up after so long being left - well right away as it turned out, and smooth as you like idle but they have no form of muffling - there is not room either, so you get this most incredible deep exhaust note, a little smoke but being cold this is to be expected. He talked me through the thrusters - each one is 20HP and incredible response when used alone, but when both are run the power output halves. However this gives a lot of confidence as does the remote you can plug in and control not just the thrusters but both engines too - this is not something you can take with you off ship, but comes with a long cable meaning you could moor her from say the sundeck stern and not be at the helm.

We went through lots but I was shocked the boat has no Inverter - either shore power or run the 13.5 KW generator. This has to be changed and I am surprised the new Mastervolt battery charger was chosen without an Inverter if nothing more as just in case. Also I am surprised she has 12v for domestics, I had planned on being 24v and may consider changing things to be 24v and thus halving the amps of everything that is connected. But that is no simple task, every pump, light, and 12v gauge and service would need to be changed or have a voltage dropper which adds to a more complex circuit and chance of failure. Jury is out on that for now.

Her first owner who had her built to custom order only had her from December 2002, the sold up in 2005 - and a lot of that time it was spent in Spain and Gibraltar. The next owner bought her in 2005 an back to Blighty but seems in 2008 -2010 went all out with the upgrades and spending with a partial re-fit, new crane and new support mount to have the lifting capacity for a Williams 285 that is kept on the sundeck roof and not on the 'swim platform'. Electric lifting table in the saloon was designed as was the electric dropping mechanism for the TV to be out of sight. She has Sat TV and SAT Phone but her nav equipment is more dated than first thought so that will be changed - I may keep the plotter just as a stand alone back up unit.

What I found odd was everything and I mean everything including tooth brushes, about 7 life jackets, 4 kids ones even small ones for dogs, all left behind. Even the booze lol so tomorrow will be going over things and finding what is worth keeping and what is going for the bin, all the lighting is in need of changing - hot running, power sapping, 20w Halogen down lighters. Yuck all being swapped out for LED versions just need to count up how many need changing, Talking of which, the outside courtesy lights are annoyingly blue LED so show very little helpful light when dark on the steps, need to change to white LEDs to be useful even if not as cool looking.

The only issue I have found with with the Air-Con and Heating. Both run off a central duel compressor system. This takes something like 20 Amps to run, and fortunately the Marina here has a 32Amp hook up - but many hook ups are only 16Amp, certainty where will take her in the new year so this is a factor. However whatever way you look at it the system consumes an enormous amount of electricity. Also it does not get that, well hot. It is warm and the forward system shut down with an error code which I forget, but I have the manual on board. Also the forward system seems not as forceful air flow despite the filter being clear and fan seaming to run smoothly. but I am wondering if it is low on water pressure - but why did the saloon one operate all okay and that is fed off the same circulation pump for the chilled (or heated) water so will have this looked into, but the long term outlook is putting in a nice diesel fired system but for the time being I bought with me a Ceramic fan heater with even on max is 1,700w but on low got the saloon toasty in a short time.

What is annoying is everything from lams to ornaments is stuck down - and I mean like they have used some kind of super adhesive and removing this is going to either ruin the teak or leave some mark but I can't really just have a silver horse and three green ducks there forever more lol.

Seriously, I have only gone through the smallest twin cabin so far and found a chair, a hoover, 7 adult life jackets, two cushions, three duvets - one Goose Down brand new from John Lewis - pillows and a bunch of old navigation gear. What awaits me as I go through the rest of the boat I know not. I might find a jet washer, as I have found half a lance and two 1 litre containers of spray foam.

Anyway I will post video and updates when back home, for now another busy day tomorrow.

 

[MapisM]

First of all, congratulations for the successful closing! :encouragement:
Below my 2c, fwiw.

such a complex management system, from the fly by wire throttle system.

You might be interested to hear that what you've got (the so called Mighty Mariner from Kobelt) is imho the best among electronic controls, for two reasons (on top of its reputation for overall reliability):

1) when used to manage non-fully electronic engines or gearboxes, the actuator required to push/pull the cables has the peculiarity of allowing a manual disengagement from its own electronic side, allowing the operator to use its levers as if there were no electronic control at all.
In a sistership of my new boat whose first owner specced the same system, these actuators were installed in one of the superstructure "cheeks" in the cockpit, hence allowing a 100% fail-safe engine control without even needing to go inside the e/r.
In your boat (assuming that you've got the same installation that I've seen in two 575 with C12 engines), this actuator is attached under the roof in the front part of the e/r. It can handle two cables, therefore you would expect to find one of them for each engine (one cable for throttle and one for gearbox), but in your engines there's no mechanical lever controlling the governor, which is electronic. Which means that there's no cable at all for the engines, as they are controlled by electrical wires only. So, they installed just one actuator, which controls the two gearboxes.
Bottom line, in the event of a catastrophic electronic failure (if the engines are still running, at least at idle), you can manually engage/disengage the gears with the levers on that box inside the e/r. Not very practical (also because you still wouldn't have any throttle control), but better than no control at all, as you would have with all other 100% electronic throttles.

2) the original Kobelt wired remote controller surely ain't the smallest and lighter bit of kit around, but in terms of functionalities it's outstanding. If that's what you've got in your boat, you are to my knowledge the only forum member who can control from it not only the gear engagement/disengagement plus the thruster (which is what most remote controls allow), but also the rudders and the throttles - i.e. pretty much the same full boat control as if you were at the helm.

may consider changing things to be 24v and thus halving the amps of everything that is connected. But that is no simple task, every pump, light, and 12v gauge and service would need to be changed or have a voltage dropper which adds to a more complex circuit and chance of failure. Jury is out on that for now.

I wouldn't bother. Actually, I'm surprised to hear that yours is a 12V boat, because I'm 95% sure that both the T575 I've seen were 24V. Is the engines bank also 12V, or 24?
Regardless, since your thrusters (which are the most electrically demanding equipment) are hydraulic, I don't think it's worth converting everything to 24V, also because you'll always need 12V anyhow. If it ain't broke...

new crane and new support mount to have the lifting capacity for a Williams 285 that is kept on the sundeck roof and not on the 'swim platform'.

Hang on, I understood that your boat is the one MrB linked in his post #119, which is the so called "Sundeck" version, whose roof above the cockpit was nowhere near solid enough to install a powerful crane and store a heavy tender. The "Sunliner" was the version built for that purpose, but the whole roof and its pillars are completely different (made with s/steel tubes, as opposed to grp).
Is yours actually another boat, maybe?
Or if that's the one, the pics in that webpage obviously pre-date the refitting - which must have been very extensive indeed.
If that's the case, I for one would be curious to see some post-refitting pics.

The only issue I have found with with the Air-Con and Heating. Both run off a central duel compressor system. This takes something like 20 Amps to run, and fortunately the Marina here has a 32Amp hook up - but many hook ups are only 16Amp, certainty where will take her in the new year so this is a factor.

Does the A/C draw 20A constantly when working, or just upon startup?
I'm asking because if you are planning to replace the battery charger with an inverter anyway, one neat feature of Victron Multiplus or Quattro inverters (not sure if also some Mastervolt components can do the same, maybe yes) is that they can automatically supply the additional A/C power required on top of whatever the dock supply is capable of. In other words, if the 20A is drawn just occasionally and for a short time, you might get by with a 16A dock supply plus the inverter contribution if and when needed.

One last generic suggestion if you are considering all possible works/upgrades:
If your boat is the one I think she is, according to the ad she doesn't have any stabilizers.
Now, the acceptance of rolling is of course a very individual thing, and you might well be happy to live with the boat behaviour - in which case you can forget what I'm going to say.
But fwiw, when I went out with a T575 equipped with Wesmar fin stabilizers, in some 2 to 3 feet sea, I wasn't impressed at all by the boat attitude at D speed with stabs turned off.
Sure, any monohull rolls at D speed with no stabs. But being used to how my old boat (a 53' trawler, with full D round hull) rolled with stabs turned off, I expected the Trader to be more stable, or similar at worst. But she rolled a fair bit more instead, and with a shorter period too, which also contributes to a less comfortable ride.
Bottom line, some sort of stabs are imho a must on Traders - and I'm afraid it's a pretty expensive bit of kit.
But as I said at the beginning of this last para, each to their own on that!