Motorboat Newbie's Change Of Direction

[Sticky Fingers]

If it is that one, it looks well cared for from a casual passing look. My boat is a couple of pontoons along so eyeball it when we go out/in.

 

[Piers]

Hi londonrascal. For one, I have found your thread really interesting. Yes, you've flown in face of the 'normal'method of boat buying, but on the other hand you've put your cash where your belief is. So I have to congratulate you. Would I do it? No, simply because I'd be too scared and I'm in no way a gambler.

So welcome to the great work of being a trawler yacht owner. Please keep the thread going with whatever ups and downs you experience. And yes please, photographs are a must.

 

[londonrascal]

Thanks for the kind words Pier.

I’ve just had her insured (£918.00 for the year) this was with Craft Insure. They were very helpful and the policy seems pretty good with the cover afforded and is underwritten by Zurich.

All being well next Friday I will have the key’s to her and will have an Engineer on hand provided at the sellers expense to go through the boat and her systems. Then when everyone has left and it is just me sat on her will I think this is all real and all now my responsibility.

Between Force 4 Chandlery and Bottom Line Marine Engineering Co. and Amazon I have begun my shopping list for Simrad kit. I feel it will be better for me to get the items at the best prices I can and then have the old kit removed and new fitted by a professional, since if they cock up the wiring it is on them to fix and not have me left scratching my head.

In the shopping basket is so far is:

• 4ft Open Array Simrad HALO radar
• NAIS 500 AIS with GPS-500 (A class b AIS Transponder)
• NSS Evo3 7” Multifunction Display unit for outside helm
• NSS Evo3 16” Multifunction Display unit for inside helm
• GO5XSE 5” display system as a redundancy
• Structure Scan 3D module to bring this feature to the NSS systems
• AP48 Autopilot Controller for inside helm *
• AP44 Autopilot Controller for outside helm *
• GS25 GPS Antenna
• 2x RS35 VHF/AIS radio
• 4x IS35 Digital Gauges (2 for outside and 2 for inside helm)
• 16 channel HD PoE CCTV system
• 1X ACR EPIRB
• 2X ACR PLB’s
• ACR rapid ditch bag
• Cobra MR HH125 handheld VHF
• Odeo Mk3 LED distress flare

*Neither of these items are required since the NSS Evo 3 displays can control the autopilot, but they look nice additions so I’ve opted for them. I also need to identify the correct drive unit for the auto helm which can only be done when I know the specifics of the steering system and hydraulic cylinder sizes. But I recon on needing an RPU300 drive unit.

A great deal more items will be added to and bought, including charts, new life jackets right down to the more mundane things like counting how many G9 LED replacement bulbs I will need for the down lighters to reduce heat and current draw. I also am at this time unsure how much handy things may be left by the previous owner.

Also I am certain the washer/dryer will not be an easy thing to replace, and may need to be taken to bits and the new one likewise brought in parts due to the width of the doorway/stairs. Then there is all new bedding and Eve foam mattresses to get, towels...This list may be a bit of a long one!

 

[jfm]

Good going.
Are you firmly decided on simrad or do you want to hear the case for alternatives?
A single 7 inch screen is way too small imho for a main nav station

 

[petem]

Let me know if you're looking for a good home for your old kit, I could do with a few upgrades!

 

[londonrascal]

@JFM: I am having a 16" for the main lower helm display and am toying with the idea of a second dedicated Radar screen Simrad do. I also feel the upper helm, which I don't much plan on using too often, could do away with one completly and just have an iPad to take up there when I did use it. This would be connected to SIM Net via their App and mirror the display and controls 'downstairs' was showing. But then you're into Apps and issues - what if you forgot to charge up the iPad etc so then I thought a 7" secondary unit on the upper helm would suffice.

I almost was swayed by Raymarine when they came out with Axiom but then getting to play with one and see the features, found it was more akin to a Simrad NSS Evo2 and Simrad's Evo 3 (in my opinion) extended the lead over the Raymarine’s offering. Not only do the screens look brighter, but I think the viewing angles are wider without any colour distortion.

I also like the fact the Simrad units have the edge by retaining some physical controls such and not relying on touch alone, something if you are in a rolling sea and just need to turn a dial rather than try and pinch to zoom might come in handy. I’ll give Raymarine one thing, their systems seem a little faster.

I’ve ruled our Garmin (don’t like their layout and ‘car sat nav’ feel) but there new Radar tracking feature seems a nice addition with Fantom but really, ‘motion scope’ was the best they could name the feature to display objects as red if heading toward or presenting a danger or green if heading away and no longer a danger.

So from what I have been reading, and seeing over the past two years, Simrad tends to bring to market something and the others then follow with their own ‘take’ on it. It really comes down to the same things with no one manufacture really being light years ahead of the other but Simrad’s assistance directly through Navico has been good, Raymarine not so much and have read rather a few other cases of their support after buying not being that hot either.

@Petem: You asked first so I will endeavour to do that for you. I am not sure if some might find its ways into a ‘keep for another day box’ or maybe I’ll install it on the River boat which would be laughable overkill.

 

[MapisM]

@Petem: You asked first so I will endeavour to do that for you. I am not sure if some might find its ways into a ‘keep for another day box’ or maybe I’ll install it on the River boat which would be laughable overkill.

If you will replace the open array Raymarine radar, I would be interested - unless petem also is of course, though that bit is probably a bit too large for his boat.

Having said that, in your boots I would not even remotely consider most of the electronics upgrades you mentioned (radar included!), because imho the functionality improvements are nowhere near worth the cost...

 

[petem]

If you will replace the open array Raymarine radar, I would be interested - unless petem also is of course, though that bit is probably a bit too large for his boat.

Having said that, in your boots I would not even remotely consider most of the electronics upgrades you mentioned (radar included!), because imho the functionality improvements are nowhere near worth the cost...

I'll might consider selling it to you !

Seriously, I note that the OP believes he will spend far more time at the lower helm than the upper one. Even for UK based boats, I wonder what % of time they are helmed from the lower station? With some use of the boat the OP might find that he does spend more time in the open and that's why I would caution him to wait a few months before buying a load of kit.

 

[markc]

I'll might consider selling it to you !

Seriously, I note that the OP believes he will spend far more time at the lower helm than the upper one. Even for UK based boats, I wonder what % of time they are helmed from the lower station? With some use of the boat the OP might find that he does spend more time in the open and that's why I would caution him to wait a few months before buying a load of kit.

I'm with Pete on this, I wouldn't buy any nav kit now - I'd wait until you'd spent a season with the boat because I will guarantee that you'll change your mind on what you actually need and want. Just use the boat, fix any issues (you'll have plenty of time over the winter) and use the boat next year. FWIW, iPads are pretty rubbish on the flybridge and I spent 20 years boating in the UK and can count the times I helmed below on my fingers!

 

[IDAMAY]

This may be regarded as extremely antediluvian but when we bought the 54 (2003 model) we decided not to invest £0,000s in new electronics. The benefits just didn't seem worth the cost. However we did want to keep a previous investment in Navionics charts (the 54 had old Raymarine kit that uses C-Map cartography). So we installed a Raymarine E7 and linked it to the autopilot and by WIFI to an Ipad. The Ipad is used as the primary navigation station and can be used either at the main helm or on the flybridge (but see more of that later). Having both systems in use operating from separate GPS' gives us redundancy and we also have a handheld GPS as further back up. This combination has taken us 3,000 miles to Porto and back in the last two seasons.

The one area I feel would definitely have benefited from an upgrade is radar. There isn't any doubt that modern digital HD radar is much superior to 2003 vintage gear but it would effectively have required replacing all three existing displays with attendant costs. There doesn't seem to be any way of replacing electronics piecemeal.

Reverting to the point about the flybridge, we expected to spend much time there. We had previously owned four FB boats and spent most time there unless the weather conditions were awful. On the 54 we intended to use the Ipad on the FB where there was a 12V socket to provide its power. In the event the FB has been mainly used for relaxing and sunbathing in harbour or at anchor and very rarely on the move. I estimate that I have helmed from the FB position for considerably less than 10% of the time. There are two main reasons for this- the weather is often against it, being either too hot or too wet but primarily because the lower helm position is so comfortable. I have even taken to docking from below as it gives easy access to the deck when required.

Anyway, I hope the purchase goes through smoothly and you get much pleasure from your new acquisition.

 

[IDAMAY]

I'm with Pete on this, I wouldn't buy any nav kit now - I'd wait until you'd spent a season with the boat because I will guarantee that you'll change your mind on what you actually need and want. Just use the boat, fix any issues (you'll have plenty of time over the winter) and use the boat next year. FWIW, iPads are pretty rubbish on the flybridge and I spent 20 years boating in the UK and can count the times I helmed below on my fingers!

I read your post just after finishing mine. A few years ago my experience would have been exactly the same as yours but changing boating style has made a big difference. The range of experience expressed on the forum contributes much to its interest I think.

 

[markc]

I read your post just after finishing mine. A few years ago my experience would have been exactly the same as yours but changing boating style has made a big difference. The range of experience expressed on the forum contributes much to its interest I think.

Yep QED, proof from 2 different angles that our experience will likely not be as per our expectations!

 

[londonrascal]

I have to say I find it interesting reading experienced hands here sharing their experiences and not getting their hands slapped. I have talked (not here) but elsewhere, in the past about using electronics, such as an iPad to compliment electronic navigation equipment and been told how irresponsible such would be for a number of reasons - but I am all for it, after all you can do your prep work sat down on the couch and not over the chart table at the main unit.

To me it is about redundancy, redundancy redundancy. This includes not having the main power supplying the navigation gear from the house bank of batteries and why I plan on having a separate (though by same manufacture) multifunction display just in case. Combine that, with the iPad, Phone and stand alone hand held GPS, short of the US turning off GPS I should have a way to know where I am, where I am going and where I have been to. Forgive me for being naive and perhaps foolish here, but I just wonder how bad it would have to get to for all the above to fail. In short, I wonder if the day will come where with so many things in our lives it all 'moves electronic' and in the boating press announcements are made that the last paper admiralty charts are to be printed before going fully digital. I recon we might be under 50 years away from that.

Moving to Radar: With Pulse Compression 'solid state' Radar, things really have moved on considerable in the last few years. Not only do these new units emit far less 'dangerous' RF but they consume a great deal less power and are up and running in a few seconds with no warm up time required. These are good things.

But for me, what really has been a game changer is the way that hardware and software have become far more advanced to deal with clutter, aid target definition and separation. It is now possible to have something like a mooring ball show up clearly from half a mile out to 20ft to the boat where more traditional radars with a Magnetron would struggle to see something so low to the water and of a spherical shape. Indeed, I have seen an RYA power boat course video shot on the Solent in a RIB . One of the Fort's in this area is clearly visible in the distance to the naked eye, but is resolutely not showing up on the old school Radar fitted to the RIB, being low down and not returning off the towers smoother rounded edges. North Sturbridge buoy however was showing with its Radar reflector doing its thing and was visible to the east.

It is cases like this which made me see how more modern Radar and the clarity it can provide could be the difference to whacking into to something or not.

Bigger antenna's are better too so it is no good going for a dome type if your boat can accommodate an open array type - and a larger the open array the better. That is because of Horizontal Beam Width. With a 6 foot open array antenna, you can focus your beam width to about 1 degree, but a smaller dome style antenna just physically cannot produce such a focused beam so you're at best (with an 18" a dome antenna) going to get a 5 degree beam width.

Now since the main benefit of Radar is to see what we cannot, target separation and a narrow degree of beam width makes all the difference. If you were headed for a Harbour entrance or maybe following a narrow channel looking for returns off of two fixed objects at night or in misty conditions to pass between, then a smaller dome based Radar will rotate, 'see' the channel marker to port and to starboard but because of the wide beam width of 5 degrees, the two returns would be seen in the same pulse - so on the display you would only see one return (or object).

With a larger open array, because of its 1 degree narrow beam width, it would see the first marker to port, rotate a little more and see the second marker to starboard and to you looking on the display you'd see the two separate returns. Just the same can be said for a boat headed toward you and one away from you at the same time (perhaps leaving and entering a harbour that is not very wide like you might find at Portsmouth) the larger open array would see the two separate returns (or boats) whereas the a smaller dome based Radar would just show you one return and may lull you into thinking there was only one boat, furthermore with older radars you could not use the Doppler effect to see which return was moving away from you and thus which was moving towards you. Simrad call their system 'Velocity Track' which will determine if a target is closing on you, diverging or stationary relative to your position all in real time.

Now sure, all you really want to know is if something is there, after all that is better than nothing at all right? But if you can upgrade to have more 'resolution' of what is going on then that is all for the better.

Newer models can sample more data in real time, can process and de-clutter and offer more modes and run them at the same time - 20ft to 5 miles out for example on two screens. Mind you claims of Radar range is like the old school 'mega pixel' wars. You might have a claim of 'up to 72 nautical mile range' really? Radar has an horizon too (it varies on how high it is from sea level) but you can work out what yours might be by measuring the height your Radar is from the water surface then take the square root of that number and times it by 1.22. You then have your maximum range. Let's say you had a small boat with a Radar 9 foot above the water, well the square root of 9 is 3, so 3x1.22=3.66 - so in that boat your max Radar range is only 3.6 nautical miles. But you also need to consider the height of the target too, so in my example let jus presume the target is also 9ft tall then you can add another 3.6 nautical miles and thus..you actual maximum range to an object of the same or greater height is 7 nautical miles. Your Radar may have a sticker that says different but it is mainly marketing nonsense to the average boater.

In conclusion, my wish for updating the navigation and safety equipment is for that - safety but also because why not? I mean if you update your TV to keep up with pace to 4K resolution, and you get the latest generation of phone and tablet every couple of years, why I wonder, do so many just accept that the equipment on a boat might be 15 odd years old and that be ok when it is pretty critical stuff and if nothing more makes boating that bit more easy. For me, I like new tech - I might have the roughest looking fenders, canopy and mooring lines going but I'll have the swish flush mount screens lol.

 

[markc]

great tech, but useful IRL with your intended cruising? Maybe you should find out first

 

[Portofino]

Older boaters like me also use charts and a compass .
I find them useful for the crew too .
Used radar once in 12 y in the med .
Never. Had it navigating the Channel or N sea .
How ever techs all out there for those that want it , but you only need 1 decent plotter at the preferred helm to compliment a chart / compass imho.

 

[londonrascal]

great tech, but useful IRL with your intended cruising?

I've been told that before, but I was told I did not need such a large boat as the one I've gone for, but it what makes you happy, and this is my happiness. This is hours spent reading up on this and the watching of videos about it combined with talking to the sales people at boat shows and mentally thinking 'yep one day Rob' and now the time is here. Of course I don't need any of this new kit but I want it and it will look lovely when it is installed. Furthermore, it is then there should it be required one day down the line of the next owner to enjoy.

I can't really say a Trader is a very 'bling' boat in looks, but I can try and bring her up to date with this sort of thing., I mean what other Radar has blue LED accent lighting around the base for no other reason but to keep the fast fisher owners happy down in Florida, and I don't think it looks too bad for blighty either.

 

[Piers]

I'll might consider selling it to you !

Seriously, I note that the OP believes he will spend far more time at the lower helm than the upper one. Even for UK based boats, I wonder what % of time they are helmed from the lower station? With some use of the boat the OP might find that he does spend more time in the open and that's why I would caution him to wait a few months before buying a load of kit.

It's rare that we spend time on the FB driving Play d'eau unless it's a most glorious day. We just enjoy the PH so much.

 

[canveyrover]

Hi just to wish you all the luck and good times on your new boat.I have a good friend who is now house bound .He watches your Captins Blogs on u tube it brings back memories of his days on the Broads.I have seen him smile and it brings him back to us for a short time.You bring pleasure to people more than you will ever know. good luck to you

 

[MapisM]

I can't really say a Trader is a very 'bling' boat in looks, but I can try and bring her up to date with this sort of thing., I mean what other Radar has blue LED accent lighting around the base for no other reason but to keep the fast fisher owners happy down in Florida, and I don't think it looks too bad for blighty either.

Absolutely. When I said...
in your boots I would not even remotely consider most of the electronics upgrades you mentioned (radar included!), because imho the functionality improvements are nowhere near worth the cost
...the "imho" wasn't there just by coincidence!

For me, the reasons why I said that I might consider replacing my Raymarine radome with an open array like the one you have at the moment are just the following:
1) the longer range is useful for spotting storms/heavy rain at some distance;
2) the replacement should be easy peasy.
Nothing else.

This doesn't mean that I disagree about digital radars being better - I just happen to use radar mostly to avoid finding myself in conditions where you REALLY need it, rather than for its "normal" purpose.
And in this respect, old analogue radars are more than good enough. But that's me, of course! :encouragement:

 

[petem]

Hi just to wish you all the luck and good times on your new boat.I have a good friend who is now house bound .He watches your Captins Blogs on u tube it brings back memories of his days on the Broads.I have seen him smile and it brings him back to us for a short time.You bring pleasure to people more than you will ever know. good luck to you

What a lovely post. I took the trouble of finding the OP's Youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/FeelMyHeaven) and I for one will be looking forward to following his adventures on his Trader.