Motorboat Newbie Seeks Advice

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londonrascal

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Firstly, an introduction:

While I am a newbie to this Forum, I have participated for several years now in various Forums and Facebook Groups that concentrate on the Norfolk Broads, and produce videos on my popular You Tube channel ‘The Captain’s Blog’ which covers my various travels on the Broads.

I also own with three other syndicate members Broad Ambition a 1966 Teak 40ft cruiser moored on the Norfolk Broads.

But why join this Forum?

Well, I’d like some advice frankly because I may be stepping up from river cruising to also owning a large ‘sea going’ boat and I’ve narrowed this down to two options: A Fairline 50 or a Princess 55 – aged from say 1988 to 1992.

It appears to me that both of these boats share the same (or almost identical) hull but the practical changes tend to be on the inside. The Princess seems a touch more ‘classy’ in fit out, the Fairline a little more conservative. My issue right now is the fact there are to be had some Fairline 50’s in the UK, but seems the Princess 55 was a far more popular boat and have found their way to Spain, Turkey and France etc which may make buying one of these more tricky compared to having something in UK waters.

So first question – which one given the choice would regulars here think might be the best choice – are there any things I should look out for so far as build quality, fit and finished and so on one brand more than the other?

Whatever boat I go for I want to ‘restore’ – I know this will mean an a partial internal re-fit with new headlining, insulation being added. Upholstery changed, the electrical systems to be moved over to 24v from 12v (this is simply because 24v DC is more efficient with amperage draw than 12v). Externally I plan to have the underside of the hull striped back to bare gel (perhaps with a blasting medium of some kind) before starting fresh with bottom paint (possibly even an Epoxy barrier to begin). Hull sides to be vinyl wrapped.

But the second question is the engines – I’d like to change them because regardless of engine hours they are old and things have moved on since the late 80’s. Thing is, I am not so sure about Volvo Penta – not that there is anything wrong with them, but they tend to cost quite a bit more and then the parts and so on further add up over the life time of the engine. I’ve looked at a few other ideas as engine bases from Iveco (I understand these are pain to change the impellers on) to John Deer and Yanmar but if you were not going down the Volvo route what would your next choice of engine be?

Finally navigation equipment – I do like the look of, and the scope of options that SIMRAD offer compared to other brands, but it seems that they are not so ‘well used’ over her in the UK with most preferring to use Raymarine items. The HALO radar and flush mount screens do all look very nice from SIMRAD but so far as actual build quality goes or any issues with brands any thoughts or tips would be gratefully received.

While this is not going to happen next week, it may well be taking shape before the end of the year – and naturally such will be filmed as I progress, making countless errors no doubt along the way.
 
Hi, welcome to the forum,

Re 50ft boat model choice
No experience in that size,
But as this size is very popular, you might get loads of advice on here

Re Repower,
If you are willing / able to spend that amount of £££ for repowering,
I would look for a younger boat, with younger engines inside.
In pleasure boats, engines are rarely worn out, / used a lot,
So in general you can say, the younger the boat, the better the engines / less running hours
but very rarely the engines need replacing because of too many hr’s
For this boat model, it doesn't make sense (economecally) to replace the engines imo
Popular (and OK) brands in that size segment are CAT, MAN, Volvo,

Re DC systems,
I don't think there are many 12V DC boat in 50ft flybridge size,
But even if you found one, I wouldn’t change it to 24V
The benefit is marginal, but the work involved and cost is huge,
think about replacing:
alternators, engine starters, pumps, toilets, hydraulic systems, fridges, lights, etc etc etc

Re Nav Gear
Garmin seems to be the preferred choice currently
Raymarine is /used to be good aswell
I have Furuno,
No clue about Simrad,


all imho

keep us updated about your search and eventual upgrade story’s,
we like that !
this is a good place for gathering lots of good and usefull advice
good luck with your search,
 
I did not wish to promote my channel, but it is a good way to see who I am, what I am about and do - that was all.

Thanks for the link about the re-powering. One of the many issues with boating is cost, moreover finding even rough ideas of cost and retail price lists - just how much is an engine? It a shame in this day and age manufactures don't have easy to find downloads of basic costs which should be pretty straight forward but I have seen Lancing Marine sell the Iveco's starting at something just under £30,000 each for a 450HP so at least that is a beginning base to work from plus accessories and needing to build some kind of structure to get the old engines out and new in since there is no hole above the engine bay through the fly bridge to make life easier.

Still all about learning .
 
I've looked at 'younger boats' but the problem is go too far into the 1990's and everything went a bit beige leather with gloss Cherry Wood. Into the 2000's and things lost their way a little when boats began to get curves - nothing too bad about that, but it all looks a bit 'jelly mould' to me and began to be more about power and style than quality and build . Look at many offerings today where increasingly a galley is getting to be almost an afterthought and not somewhere you can prepare a decent meal. Older in some ways can be better even if a bit 'old fashion'.

So some years of looking, weighing up all the options, several boat shows and looking on the latest stuff it all comes back to the above choices - which of course, other will have their own views on.

They are big - and that is something I find attractive, with the lovely aft well deck, 'patio doors' so you can take out things easily and equally bring new things in from furniture to an oven and hob. They also for some reason, remind me as a kid when I'd watch Miami Vice. They have very pointy bows and sleek lines. This is about a dream to have a boat but it to be as good as one can have building up from a good base.
 
Hi Londonrascal,

Might be an idea to show a link to the Broad Ambition saga.

Anyone who takes a broads cruiser down the coast to be part of a royal celebration on the Thames deserves a fair hearing :encouragement:

Even Vas from Mitos would be impressed
 
There is no reason why you cannot find a boat of that age with perfectly usable engines. As already mentioned hours on that type of boat are usually low and provided the engines are properly maintained there is no reason to change them. New engines are very different from engines of that era and it is a major and mega expensive to attempt to fit new engines and will add little value to the boat. Think upwards of £70k to pay somebody to do it. The reason prices are not freely available is because there is no standard spec and the basic engine is only a starting point. Best to look for a boat that is in tip top mechanical condition as refitting and upgrading interiors is more practical and economically viable.

The Princes and Fairline are different boats, but as they aim at essentially the same market there are obvious similarities. Both sold well in that period and are generally of comparable quality. You will find devoted fans of both brands, and hopefully some of them on here will tell you why they chose one rather than the other.
 
Many on here would be of an opinion, based upon experience, that VP engines from the late 1980 to early 1990 period were some of the best made. I know many like common rail electronic engines, but if I can avoid having them on any boat I ever own I shall be quite happy.

So if you find a boat you like employ someone like VolvoPaul of this parish to examine the engines as his advice is as good as you will receive anywhere.

I believe that around that time both Fairline and Princess designs originated on the drawing board of Bernard Olesinksi, possibly explains the close similarities.
 
So little update to matters:

I've now almost certainly opted for the Fairline - some of the features of the Princess are nice, perhaps some items interior wise are also a little nicer too, but the issue with the Princess is frankly how many seats does one boat need? The Princess seems to have a lot of seating even having a fixed table to port of the helm which would find itself for so much of the time unused but taking up space.

Another factor is the Princess boats are not in the UK so even going to view one involves a mini 'holiday' - so the main issue is now having found a suitable Fairline and getting in touch with the Broker is going to funding the project - not the actual readies to do it but when they will be available and if the boat will still be for sale of someone else getting there first. Still I am hopeful that 'most' people prefer smaller boats or newer boats and not larger older boats so this will work in my favour and mean the boat remains unsold for another 4-6 weeks so I can get my hands on her.

This however does not stop me making plans since if it is not this particular Fairline 50 I like, it will be another and things are pretty much standard on them.

So what are some of the things that will be going on once I get to be the new owner of one of these boats?

Navigation:

I have been spending far too many hours looking at far too many videos, manuals and reviews of all sorts of navigation equipment and as a result I will be going the Simrad route. They seem far more aware of what the 'iPhone generation' seek and demand in their systems - where others are now trying to catch up. So I will go for a pair of NSS16 evo3 - these are 16" each and will need some GRP work to remove the current set of engine gauges in their 'boxed in' housing together with other areas of moulding to cater for 'bits and bobs' and a folded paper chart. To stop glare of the gel coat reflecting in the screens these exposed areas of the helm covered with Suede in a deep charcoal colour.

I looked at Raymarine's Axiom system (which has not long been launched)but in my opinion is on a par with Simrads EVO2 systems - yet since Simrad now have got EVO3 - I think this pips Axiom to the post and I prefer the fact all the touch functions also have physical buttons - programmable at that. This great for rough weather where you can twist a wheel to zoom in, not pinch and pull with fingers, but Raymarine has gone with touch only - a shame.

They both have quad core processing behind them, but comparing videos of the two systems Simrad's do seem more responsive. Garmin might be great, but they seem more expensive for much of the same features of the Simrad offerings - perhaps the only benefit to Garmin is the size of their company and the vast range of other electronic products they produce meaning more of this skill and development filters down into a more polished product for the consumer.

The Radar upgraded to Simrad's HALO Pulse Compression Open Array system. The Auto pilot will likewise come from Simrad in the form of their AP48 controller and associated backend drive units, heading and rudder sensors.

Engines:

I've not stopped in my interest in new engines - but that will no doubt come back up in due time. The way I see it is someone, somewhere will have a want for the engines the boat currently has - these will have some value to them. Replacing them will mean the boat will gain some value too - after all not many boats of this vintage have been re-engined, though I note a Princess 55 was and had such undertaken at Godchild Marine at Burgh Castle on the Norfolk Broads in 2014. She was fitted with a pair of Iveco 440HP N67 engines which seem nice - apart from when it comes to change the impeller on them.

Interior:

I know now who will be carrying out re-upholstery works, replacing all the head linings and providing new mattresses.

While the headling is down be time to strip all the down lights out and put in LED dimmable ones, also insulate all the deckheads and as much of the hull sides I can get to. The boat has three manual toilets, two showers and three wash basins. Like seats, it seems modern boats can't have enough loos - I'll have one shower wet room and one toilet. Electric of course.

I am not sure I like the current helm seat look or the big drop one can have from it - effectively down into the Galley. I think perhaps a nice satin handrail atop some toughened glass would look nice here and make things safer too. As for the helm seats, I've been looking at some pneumatic ones more usually seen in HGV lorries - great for comfort and can absorb modest bumps too.

Heating & Cooling:

The boat, like most does not have air-conditioning. This is a pain. So some years ago I thought naively that marine air conditioners were special in some way, needed less power and so on. Now I know they are special - they cost a lot. They also need shore or generator power and have a great deal of stuff crammed into a small area, then need raw water to take the waste heat away. Too complicated for me, so I am going for a commercial split system. Cheap, easy to get parts for and if anything goes bang easy to replace with no holes needing in the hull.

The Condenser part of the system (box with fan you see) will go up on the flybridge, port side - some seating will be lost (yep lots of seating up there to it seems) so that won't matter to me, the Evaporator part of the system (where cold air is produced) will then go in the large Lazarette and then will feed the boat with a 'cold air return' in the saloon making the system recycle the air. While individual cabins won't have their own thermostat, the entire interior can then be evenly cooled. But, since the system will be reverse cycle come winter it can heat and a nice quirk of this sort of set up is you get more heat Kw our for each Kw of power you expend putting in. This means these are amongst the most efficient ways of heating using electricity. Don't ask me how I will hide the ducting and get even air flow - but I am on to it.

Electrics:

Annoyingly the boat is 12v (and not 24v) so this will need changing in time as there is just no way I am going to be happy on a boat like this with a 12v system, what is more I have been in touch with Victron Energy and I'd want an Isolation Transformer and a 5kw Inverter that can also act as a 120Amp battery charger - all simple enough but then I found out about their Lithium batteries after talking to a chap in America who has fitted just such a Lithium based 24v system to his large Coach that he is refitting as a motorhome. Once again though, it is this need to go through agents and dealers I find so frustrating as everything seems so fluid as to price and talking to people over the phone. I prefer websites and personal research and comparisons late at night . But then I find out Victron Energy supply systems found in commercial and residential home solar installations so then it is just a matter of finding a company that supplies these and bingo you've got clear up front pricing that is less than the marine dealer was talking about.

Need a Generator - it will need to power that Aircon for a start when not connected to shore power (talking of which need to have a 32Amp and 16Amp supply here - which I think is possible depending on marinas some have provisions for the beefier 32Amp juice) so am looking in the 12kw range of gen sets, hate the idea about one screaming away at 3,000RPM so found Solé Diesel do a nice 13.9Kw 1,500RPM set with a Mitsubishi engine base in an enclosure.

Control:

I like the new 'Rim Drive' thrusters that Vetus have launched - almost silent they claim, and fully controllable from 0 to 100% power with a continuous duty rating. But to be honest I am not worried about noise here, but will need a stern thrusters and remove control operation of them from when ashore - Side Power seem to do some nice conventional set ups here with remove and 'hold' functions where the boat is held to the Quay. Any idea how many KG force a boat that weighs in at about 14,200kg with a 50ft length would require?

Right think that is all for now till the next update :)


PS if you want to see some of Broad Ambition at sea then here you go, but this topic is not about her and we don't want to annoy people with 'Topic Drift':
 
Last edited:
Sounds an interesting project but bear in mind you will add little to the value of the boat.

If fitting ac then do it properly. No one will touch a boat with domestic ac. Also moving that volume of air using small pipes will be an issue ( they have to be small as you are trying to retro fit and finding space will be a challenge.
 
I see your point reference to value, but I have been 'brought up' with boats on the Norfolk Broads, some go silly with spend but forget at the end of the day what they have is a very smart ex-hire boat. It will therefore not make a great deal of money over and above a well kept example of the same type come to selling. That said look at any brand of boat, the same model and age and see the differences in prices people value them at so anything is possible.

Of course different boaters have different needs and wants, but I think we can all agree what can make more sense to someone buying is something that has been well looked after - if it has been upgraded a lot too then it stands head and shoulders above the crowd then it will be more desirable thus attract a better price.

While I might appear to talk of a 'pipe dream' or have people envisage a cobbled together mess of DIY bits and bobs, the aim I have is to create something unique and of a very high quality finish. From using Bamboo as a sustainable alternative to the more usual woods for trim details, to bringing sound insulation standards normally seen in a recording studio to the engine bay - right down to the saloon flooring 'floating 'on a rubber isolators.

For me, this project is the one off - it's not about re-sale value actually and it most certainly is not about keeping my ideas and thoughts inside the box marked 'conventional'.

Take the Air Conditioning- most boats simply have not the space for a commercial system to be installed in them, there is aesthetics too. But a commercial system is easier to service, cheaper to get parts for and a wealth of service engineers used to such systems. Having worked out where things can be placed and with the use of new mouldings to disguise their existence, externally you'd be hard pushed to figure out such a system was indeed present.

Having looked into many marine systems you need two, perhaps three to be able to have enough capacity to cool (or heat) the volume of the air the boat and take account of the solar radiation that will come in on a summers day too. Their compactness is also their downfall with higher speed smaller diameter fans which themselves create more noise. Nothing is to blame here, it is just how it is - much the same with warm air heating ducting and vents. It has to be that way because it will fit to a wide range of boats of all types and sizes in more confided spaces so it makes sense for manufactures to make it that way thus to appeal to a larger market - yet it is a compromise because of that.

I have planned on using ducting work along both port and starboard sides with slim line, but wide ducting at deck head height then with standard circular ducting elsewhere lower down and in cabins- combined, this will result in the high volumes of air flow being dealt with, in a reasonably quiet fashion with little back pressure and a far more even distribution of air with little cool or hot spots to be found.

I will also use an Ultra Violet LED array along with standard air filters to kill air borne bacteria and mould spores . A similar system will be used in the fresh water pump system to help with the water being bacteria free - much like ponds and aquariums use to help kill bacteria.
 
Last edited:
jrudge said:
The external unit will be noisy and not be designed for salt water spray hence will rust. ( look at units near the sea ).

any larger boat has central chillers and local air handlers.
Click to expand...

+1
I think there are many well known modern A/C systems that are boat orientated ,energy efficient , silent etc
And use ready available parts .
Eg Frigomar use Calpeda pumps ---which are a bit like Bosch and alternators in cars -plenty about easy to get
My system is silent ,the fans and so on ,even the "unit " is so quiet it resides under a bunk in the crew cabin and you would not notice its running .
There are water cooled for a reason as opposed to some Aircooled unit one see,s stuck on the side of a building

Many BOAT systems can carry a £££ risk eg a hydraulic Passerelle ,steering ,flaps , auto pliot and so on ,but we don,t swop or Preffer a plank of wood ( a nice "bamboo " wood ) instead ,because of fear of replacing a valve ,ram or pump ,or opt out of a hydraulic pack -


http://www.frigomar.com/en/
 
londonrascal said:
I see your point reference to value, but I have been 'brought up' with boats on the Norfolk Broads, some go silly with spend but forget at the end of the day what they have is a very smart ex-hire boat. It will therefore not make a great deal of money over and above a well kept example of the same type come to selling. That said look at any brand of boat, the same model and age and see the differences in prices people value them at so anything is possible.

Of course different boaters have different needs and wants, but I think we can all agree what can make more sense to someone buying is something that has been well looked after - if it has been upgraded a lot too then it stands head and shoulders above the crowd then it will be more desirable thus attract a better price.

While I might appear to talk of a 'pipe dream' or have people envisage a cobbled together mess of DIY bits and bobs, the aim I have is to create something unique and of a very high quality finish. From using Bamboo as a sustainable alternative to the more usual woods for trim details, to bringing sound insulation standards normally seen in a recording studio to the engine bay - right down to the saloon flooring 'floating 'on a rubber isolators.

For me, this project is the one off - it's not about re-sale value actually and it most certainly is not about keeping my ideas and thoughts inside the box marked 'conventional'.

Take the Air Conditioning- most boats simply have not the space for a commercial system to be installed in them, there is aesthetics too. But a commercial system is easier to service, cheaper to get parts for and a wealth of service engineers used to such systems. Having worked out where things can be placed and with the use of new mouldings to disguise their existence, externally you'd be hard pushed to figure out such a system was indeed present.

Having looked into many marine systems you need two, perhaps three to be able to have enough capacity to cool (or heat) the volume of the air the boat and take account of the solar radiation that will come in on a summers day too. Their compactness is also their downfall with higher speed smaller diameter fans which themselves create more noise. Nothing is to blame here, it is just how it is - much the same with warm air heating ducting and vents. It has to be that way because it will fit to a wide range of boats of all types and sizes in more confided spaces so it makes sense for manufactures to make it that way thus to appeal to a larger market - yet it is a compromise because of that.

I have planned on using ducting work along both port and starboard sides with slim line, but wide ducting at deck head height then with standard circular ducting elsewhere lower down and in cabins- combined, this will result in the high volumes of air flow being dealt with, in a reasonably quiet fashion with little back pressure and a far more even distribution of air with little cool or hot spots to be found.

I will also use an Ultra Violet LED array along with standard air filters to kill air borne bacteria and mould spores . A similar system will be used in the fresh water pump system to help with the water being bacteria free - much like ponds and aquariums use to help kill bacteria.
Click to expand...
I won't be critical of your air conditioner theory because it's well outside my area of expertise. But I am very interested in your ideas on sound insulation for the engine room so I will follow with great interest
 
Big diesels need a lot of air .That air needs a big hole (s) in the boat ER to get in .Noise moves the other way .
Once that air is compressed and a squirt of oil added the pressure difference of the explosion is nosey too .
Underwater Exhausts help ,the water absorbs some of that sound as you bomb along .

Padding out the ER will only go part way ,but it's the only viable variable you can adjust , so maybe worth investigating if it's not padded out enough ?

In a large open boat the sound seems to dissipate better -into thin air basically ,than an enclosed hard top or saloon which the walls /sides /ceiling act as containment systems and bounce it back inside suedo amplifying .
 
As already mentioned using a commercial split system will mean the outdoor (condensing) unit will not tolerate the marine environment for very long. Even the higher end Daikin and Mitsubishi units use uncoated aluminium fins on copper tubes, which with sea spray will start to disintegrate within months not years.

Most split systems now use R410A with the market now moving towards R32. These are very high pressure refrigerants, especially R32, requiring use of brazed, not flared joints. Also be aware that R32 is flammable, although if the boat is drafty this could be less of an issue, but make sure it cannot leak into the engine bay.

Having said this AC on a UK boat falls into the same category as Hatstands, Waste paper baskets, and Naval Officers.
 
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