Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Good point. I noticed my tailshaft mount had come unbonded. Must order a new one.
MOT Tow Bar Electrics Check
- Thread starter Sheppy
- Start date
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Every time I have mentioned my tow-bar and sidesteps I've been told they don't matter, but when I say the car has alloy wheels, (which are fitted as standard,) they get all suspicious. Most cars have alloy wheels these days.
Racingfrank7
Well-Known Member
Not 100% but I think it's because 13pin are a eu standard wiring pattern.
It does seem rather daft tho i agree with you, because all knackered / half knackered ones you see are normal 7pin trailer sockets that farmers / home garden trailers use !!
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Racingfrank7
Well-Known Member
Yours sockets are not test able due to you not having a single 13pin socket that does everything your 2 sockets do but in 1
rbcoomer
Well-Known Member
I think what you concluded is spot on. Sheppy rang VOSA today to clarify and indeed it seems it's been a popular topic for their enquiry line - and widely misunderstood! Bizarre though it seems, the newer 13-pin 'Euro' connector is the ONLY one that should be tested for electrical function! The traditional UK connectors that most of us have are NOT included beyond being securely fixed. I don't believe they elaborated as to why, but I think the comments about there not being a regulation 'standard' for wiring must be a factor. In Sheppy's case, the MoT station should not have failed - but it seems it's not easy to get them to accept that! He's now removed the tow-bar and connector in order to get the retest done within the necessary timescale and is somewhat annoyed (understandably!)
rafiki_
Well-Known Member
It is quite normal to only test those systems that are current at the time of introduction of the regulation. You don't check for airbag warnings on cars not fitted with airbags 
rbcoomer
Well-Known Member
But surely 7 pin 'standard' towing connectors are still being fitted?
lenseman
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Interestingly, it mentions testing a trailer electric socket of 13 pins (HGV) with an approved testing device but the is no mention of a domestic 7-pin trailer socket (either the black or the white socket) or the testing as such apart for the fixings of a trailer socket??
.
rafiki_
Well-Known Member
I'm not an expert on trailer pins, but VOSA will have introduced this change on the back of an European Reg. iIf the 7 pin version is a UK fit only, then this will only be covered by Construction and Use, not a separate Eu Directive.
rbcoomer
Well-Known Member
According to website of a local tow-bar fitter, 13 Pin electrics combines 12N (Road lighting) & 12S (Supplementary caravan circuits) into one high quality plug & socket connection. So not just trucks it seems... New caravans supplied from 2009 are also supposedly fitted with 13pin electrics, but not having a new one I can't comment if that's correct!
alant
Well-Known Member
Does that mean, that neither get checked on an MoT?
Sheppy
Well-Known Member
There’s been an awful lot of confusion and argument over this issue but after much debate with the garage and confirmation from VOSA, it’s now clear that the 7 pin trailer sockets (including the twin caravan black and white setup) is exempt from electrical testing and therefore cannot fail an MOT if faulty. However, these sockets (along with the entire tow hitch assembly) are subject to physical checks and do need to be in good mechanical and serviceable condition, i.e. they need to be able to securely hold the trailer socket in place and not have any physical damage else they can still fail an MOT.
However the newer 13 pin Euro socket (still quite rare) does require electrical testing and will fail an MOT if faulty. And they are also subject to the same mechanical inspection.
VOSA also confirmed that the 13 pin electrical testing has been introduced due to EU legislation. The reason they have decided not to introduce 7 pin electrical testing is simply because the 7 pin sockets are to be phased out and therefore will eventually become obsolete. However I have a feeling that they might introduce 7 pin electrical testing in the future simply to add conformity and reduce confusion. This may also help with future trailer MOT style testing that’s on the horizon.
Although I doubt I’ll take them up on their offer, my garage have now offered to refit my tow bar FOC, but probably only because I enquired about the VOSA complaints procedure!
VOSA have had a nightmare with the misinterpretation over their wording but it seems that they’ve been changing the goal posts on a few MOT specifications this year which has caused confusion with MOT testers.
So I think that it is worth questioning and investigating these issues and not always taking things at face value. My garage is now happier that they have clarity on this and that they won’t be failing cars by error. Interestingly, they admitted that they don’t even own a 13 pin tester and only bought a 7 pin tester - go figure!!!
That said, I do now believe that these 7 pin sockets should be in good working electrical condition, along with the rest of the trailer electrics, but it’s always good to know the law. And it’s been an interesting post, so thanks for all your input.
John
However the newer 13 pin Euro socket (still quite rare) does require electrical testing and will fail an MOT if faulty. And they are also subject to the same mechanical inspection.
VOSA also confirmed that the 13 pin electrical testing has been introduced due to EU legislation. The reason they have decided not to introduce 7 pin electrical testing is simply because the 7 pin sockets are to be phased out and therefore will eventually become obsolete. However I have a feeling that they might introduce 7 pin electrical testing in the future simply to add conformity and reduce confusion. This may also help with future trailer MOT style testing that’s on the horizon.
Although I doubt I’ll take them up on their offer, my garage have now offered to refit my tow bar FOC, but probably only because I enquired about the VOSA complaints procedure!
VOSA have had a nightmare with the misinterpretation over their wording but it seems that they’ve been changing the goal posts on a few MOT specifications this year which has caused confusion with MOT testers.
So I think that it is worth questioning and investigating these issues and not always taking things at face value. My garage is now happier that they have clarity on this and that they won’t be failing cars by error. Interestingly, they admitted that they don’t even own a 13 pin tester and only bought a 7 pin tester - go figure!!!
That said, I do now believe that these 7 pin sockets should be in good working electrical condition, along with the rest of the trailer electrics, but it’s always good to know the law. And it’s been an interesting post, so thanks for all your input.
John
Keith-i
Well-Known Member
Most European cars come with 13 pin electrics if ordered as a factory fitted item on the car. Many people opt to fit tow bars as an aftermarket and therefore tend to use the ubiquitous 7 pin. In my experience the 13 pins are better as they connect with a bayonet type action which drives the pins in squarely without the usual pushing required with a 7 pin.
Assassin
Well-Known Member
VOSA will supply an information sheet to all testing stations via E-mail and as long as they are opened they can be read and printed off, if someone works at am MOT testing station they should be able to access the list and download the appropriate sheet, then put it on here so everyone can print a copy if they have a tow bar, particularly those towing their boats.
Sheppy
Well-Known Member
Thanks Assassin,
That's easy to do but my summary offers a clearer overview. It's not that the documentation isn't available, it's simply that the wording isn't clear to the garages. I went back into the garage armed with my printout where I had highlighted the text showing that the 7 pin isn't part of the test. They had highlighted the same text on their garage copy showing me that the 7 pin is part of the test! And yes, I did ask if they could actually read the English language - not that that went down very well
I never once assumed MOT testing was open to interpretation, I always assumes more of an exact science, but we live and learn. Just useful for people to know that their cars can't fail because their 7 pin socket isn't working - not that I'm saying they shouldn't be working you understand
John
That's easy to do but my summary offers a clearer overview. It's not that the documentation isn't available, it's simply that the wording isn't clear to the garages. I went back into the garage armed with my printout where I had highlighted the text showing that the 7 pin isn't part of the test. They had highlighted the same text on their garage copy showing me that the 7 pin is part of the test! And yes, I did ask if they could actually read the English language - not that that went down very well
I never once assumed MOT testing was open to interpretation, I always assumes more of an exact science, but we live and learn. Just useful for people to know that their cars can't fail because their 7 pin socket isn't working - not that I'm saying they shouldn't be working you understand
John
lewi
Well-Known Member
through my work i have done 2 vosa testers courses (albeit psv's), the first thing you learn is the vosa handbook is one big contradiction,
for every rule that says 'good' there is one that says 'no good' , they do however say if you have an issue with a test station over say its
failing of a vehicle with regard to test equipment, you can ask to see the caliberation cert. of the equipment used (ask nice
) and a demo
of the fault, in this case the tester would have tried to connect a 13pin tester to a 7pin socket, could have resolved the issue at the time of test.
the asking for a demo or to be shown the failed item, is not a slight or slur on the tester, you may be repairing the vehicle yourself and may not
be able to tell a ball joint from a suspention joint, (it has been known),
so if your vehicle fails, and you are unsure why just ask,
for every rule that says 'good' there is one that says 'no good' , they do however say if you have an issue with a test station over say its
failing of a vehicle with regard to test equipment, you can ask to see the caliberation cert. of the equipment used (ask nice
) and a demoof the fault, in this case the tester would have tried to connect a 13pin tester to a 7pin socket, could have resolved the issue at the time of test.
the asking for a demo or to be shown the failed item, is not a slight or slur on the tester, you may be repairing the vehicle yourself and may not
be able to tell a ball joint from a suspention joint, (it has been known),
so if your vehicle fails, and you are unsure why just ask,
Assassin
Well-Known Member
Sheppy:
Totally understand where you're coming from, but unfortunately everything is open to interpretation and this benefits VOSA for many reasons, what I am about to say will either make you think I am totally bonkers or you will do a little research and find I am correct and understand a little more of life.
VOSA are actually a private company which is a for profit corporation just like any other corporation, you can check it out on Dunn and Bradstreet if you wish, and the reason they issue more rules and regulations is for more revenue and the possibility of more revenue from convictions of motorists as enforcement agencies such as the Police or VOSA themselves have more offences to detect, or more things to check which can increase the chances of finding something which can yield more profit.
When you register a vehicle you have to "apply" and in law an application is begging, and registering something means you give away "Deed of Title" which is the lawful ownership of something, also when you register something it also means you are assumed to know the benefits and liabilities you incur as the V5 document is a lawful contract, and once it is signed with your signature you have actually given away lawful ownership of your vehicle to the DVLA which is a division of VOSA. This is the reason they can come along and lift your vehicle for a number of offences and crush it because its theirs; your V5 document is a contract which binds you to certain contractual conditions, you must submit your vehicle for an annual MOT if over 3 years old, tax it, insure it, and maintain it in good working order. Nobody can come and take your television because its yours, if they take it and crush it, it is a criminal offence.
By being vague they are mitigating their chances of prosecution and this is the reason they are often vague, if they are taken to court they are already halfway to a defence through being vague and using definitions and interpretations, so its a defensive position.
Its interesting stuff.
Totally understand where you're coming from, but unfortunately everything is open to interpretation and this benefits VOSA for many reasons, what I am about to say will either make you think I am totally bonkers or you will do a little research and find I am correct and understand a little more of life.
VOSA are actually a private company which is a for profit corporation just like any other corporation, you can check it out on Dunn and Bradstreet if you wish, and the reason they issue more rules and regulations is for more revenue and the possibility of more revenue from convictions of motorists as enforcement agencies such as the Police or VOSA themselves have more offences to detect, or more things to check which can increase the chances of finding something which can yield more profit.
When you register a vehicle you have to "apply" and in law an application is begging, and registering something means you give away "Deed of Title" which is the lawful ownership of something, also when you register something it also means you are assumed to know the benefits and liabilities you incur as the V5 document is a lawful contract, and once it is signed with your signature you have actually given away lawful ownership of your vehicle to the DVLA which is a division of VOSA. This is the reason they can come along and lift your vehicle for a number of offences and crush it because its theirs; your V5 document is a contract which binds you to certain contractual conditions, you must submit your vehicle for an annual MOT if over 3 years old, tax it, insure it, and maintain it in good working order. Nobody can come and take your television because its yours, if they take it and crush it, it is a criminal offence.
By being vague they are mitigating their chances of prosecution and this is the reason they are often vague, if they are taken to court they are already halfway to a defence through being vague and using definitions and interpretations, so its a defensive position.
Its interesting stuff.
rafiki_
Well-Known Member
Sorry Assassin, VOSA is part of the Department for Transport, it is an Executive Agency, and not a corporation. VOSA does not make any regulations, these are generally developed by the Eu in Brussells then the Department for Transport has then to transpose these regs into UK law. VOSA administers the MoT scheme, where, as you know, all the testing is done by private garages to VOSA standards. Most of VOSA's work is administrating and enforcing Commercial Vehicle and Public Service Vehicle Operators. VOSA has powers to stop CV's, Busses and Coaches and enforce fixed penalty notices. The Police enforce the MoT scheme. DVLA is not part of VOSA, it is a separate Agency, also part of the Department for Transport. DVLA administrates the drivers and vehicle licensing databases. VOSA has no powers to make new regulations, these must be done by the DfT, and then passed in Parliament before they can become law.
Assassin
Well-Known Member
Hi Sheppy
Actually they are part of VOSA, ultimately they are all part of the DfT and even this is a corporation even though it is as you say an executive agency, but then most Government departments and even the UK is a registered corporation and it surprised me when I looked into this, this is why its intriguing and very interesting. It does operate independently in many of its areas as you correctly state as both have mainly differing functions which you have clearly stated, but also an overlap in many areas.
You are partially correct on the legislation and I prefer the description that DfT are EU led, but VOSA and DVLA have a massive input and influence in the legislation and how it is interpreted and ratified here in the UK, particularly at the early bill stages, then it is passed through both houses to become law.
If you do a little research you will find almost every Government organisation is a corporation, DWP, every police force or authority, every council, every magistrates court, Houses of Parliament, and even the UK itself are registered corporations; take a look for yourself even though Government are trying to hide it and I bet you will be as intrigued as I was when I started looking.
Actually they are part of VOSA, ultimately they are all part of the DfT and even this is a corporation even though it is as you say an executive agency, but then most Government departments and even the UK is a registered corporation and it surprised me when I looked into this, this is why its intriguing and very interesting. It does operate independently in many of its areas as you correctly state as both have mainly differing functions which you have clearly stated, but also an overlap in many areas.
You are partially correct on the legislation and I prefer the description that DfT are EU led, but VOSA and DVLA have a massive input and influence in the legislation and how it is interpreted and ratified here in the UK, particularly at the early bill stages, then it is passed through both houses to become law.
If you do a little research you will find almost every Government organisation is a corporation, DWP, every police force or authority, every council, every magistrates court, Houses of Parliament, and even the UK itself are registered corporations; take a look for yourself even though Government are trying to hide it and I bet you will be as intrigued as I was when I started looking.
rafiki_
Well-Known Member
Sorry Assassin, the DfT is not a corporation, it is a Government Department. Check out www.dft.gov.uk and then look for the various Agencies. VOSA and DVLA are separate, and publish their own Business Plans and Annual Reports. DVLA is nearly 3 times larger than VOSA, 6000 people compared with 2500. Neither of them are registered as corporations. There are some Government Agencies that have subsidiaries that are registered, for specific reasons, but not VOSA or DVLA. I'm sure the DfT consults with their Agencies during the development of new regs, as they do by law with society.