More Small Boat Heating - Trangia Stove Test...

[V1701]

This might be of interest - I have a Trangia camping stove on board so thought I'd try it as a heater. It takes about half a cup of meths to fill the burner, results were as follows, pics below as well:

• Initial cabin temperature was 16.4c
• 15 minutes in on full heat reached 19.8c, then put it on half heat
• 20 minutes in 22.8 degrees and that's where the temperature stayed on half heat

I had the stove on the cabin floor near the companionway and the thermometer at about chest height right at the other end of the cabin. Didn't modify the stove in any way, just used the frying pan lid which leaves a gap around the top of the stove (see pic). The burner ran out of fuel about 45 minutes in, so I reckon you'd get about an hour or so if you set it off on half heat.

I was surprised how much heat it gave out and how quickly it heated up the cabin. Size of cabin is about 8' x 6' x 6' (Albin Vega), hatch was left open a few inches for ventilation. I'd say a reasonable means of having heat for occasional use if I didn't have shore power available (normally use oil-filled radiator). The stoves are from £50 odd new, lots of used ones on ebay, you can use them secured to a gas stove if you run out of gas and also good to use in the cockpit - they're designed for use in windy conditions. I'll try it again in colder conditions & with a CO detector...

Pics:

 

[Trundlebug]

Beware carbon monoxide

Trangias are excellent camping cookers I used one for years, they're very efficient, compact and lightweight.

BUT beware, there is a significant risk of CO Carbon Monoxide poisoning / asphyxiation in a confined space, as the burner uses up the available oxygen and may result in partial combustion, thereby emitting CO. If you're going to use this as a regular form of heating make sure you also have a CO alarm and good ventilation.

 

[lenseman]

One of the best stoves on the market bar none.

I have used them since the 60's and I was told that Chris Bonnington (mountaineer) was asked to use one and write a review of it whilst on one of his Himalaya expeditions. The report went something like:

" . . . having tested the Trangia Stove whilst at Everest Base Camp . . . . I can state that it has one serious drawback! You really need to sell with a couple of house bricks as, although the Trangia Stove would not blow out in a 100 mph wind, it kept on getting blown off the mountain! "


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[fisherman]

What about the upturned flower pot trick? I hear it is very effective on a gas stove.
Got two trangias, remember the woolworth's meths stove? Just about the same burner, I think they were a shilling.

 

[MASH]

Oh dear. Back to Carbon Monoxide. Let's apply a teeny bit of common dog here, shall we...? Every form of combustion cooker or heater that isn't closed cycle could, in extremely theoretical circumstances, produce CO. Do you suppose that any boat (even one without ventilation ensured as described by the OP) is so airtight (ha!) that a tiny flame like that could lower the O2 content appreciably? Or more to the point whether any occupant would still be conscious if it did get that low? NO. Pure whimsy. And as every boat I've ever been on has multiple burner cookers using gas, diesel or meths that gobble oxygen several times faster than a tiny Trangia I think we're talking hooey. No one's ever heard of CO problems with gas, so why with meths? No difference at all.

Right. One practical warning on the Trangia; it employs an open reservoir of meths as seen in the photo. Kick it over accidentally (pretty easy if its on the cabin sole) or tip it off a ledge and boiling flaming meths flies everywhere. For that reason alone I'd avoid it, personally. If you wanted to combine heat and cooking a Coleman type (pressurised reservoir) would be safer if not as quiet, and has the advantage of running on dieso or petrol too, so no special fuel supply needed. Or, as suggested elsewhere, a gas mantle to combine heat and light.

With a little diy it would be easy enough to design a double skinned bulkhead mounted "chimney" to put your Trangia burner in, but that seems a lot of effort.

Add a 12v computer fan to circulate the air with any of those ideas and you'd have a lovely environment.

 

[V1701]

Just to clarify - this is intended as a bit of a follow up to the various recent lengthy & interesting threads on heating a small boat. In those threads we've been made aware of the CO issue - hence mention of further test with a CO detector & opening hatch for ventilation in the OP. I guess I'm suggesting an economical, useful alternative to the likes of tea lights & flower pots, Vapalux M320's & Origo Heatpals for occasional, sensible (i.e. with adequate ventilation, CO detector & not overnight) use. I was thinking of getting a Vapalux or a Heatpal for that purpose but now I think what I have is adequate. What I'd really like is to put in a flued heater of some description, but the Vega is quite small for one...

 

[lw395]

Oh dear. Back to Carbon Monoxide. Let's apply a teeny bit of common dog here, shall we...? Every form of combustion cooker or heater that isn't closed cycle could, in extremely theoretical circumstances, produce CO. Do you suppose that any boat (even one without ventilation ensured as described by the OP) is so airtight (ha!) that a tiny flame like that could lower the O2 content appreciably? Or more to the point whether any occupant would still be conscious if it did get that low? NO. Pure whimsy. And as every boat I've ever been on has multiple burner cookers using gas, diesel or meths that gobble oxygen several times faster than a tiny Trangia I think we're talking hooey. No one's ever heard of CO problems with gas, so why with meths? No difference at all.

.....

CO poisoning is really not about lowering the oxygen content of the air.
CO is poisonous at a few parts per million, a serious problem way before the reduced oxygen is any sort of issue. It's also not good for you at non-lethal levels.
And yes, there have been CO deaths from gas appliances.
Do you think that the tent where someone died in the New Forest was airtight?

 

[MASH]

LW, re low O2 read trundlebug's post at the top of this page again...

Tent. Actually, a modern tent fabrics are pretty good at stopping air movement and well protected zips the same, so actually, yes, they can be (esp in still conditions). But I wasn't advocating using anything in a sealed and completely unventilated place was I - so the point really doesn't apply. I don't know the details of the New Forest incident - what stove were they using? Charcoal by any chance?

 

[Zagato]

Thanks V1701, I have a Trangia (great bit of kit ) so you have just made me wonder why I bought an Origo Heatpal Good job the wife doesn't read this forum

 

[Seajet]

I have an Origo heatpal, I always leave the main hatch open a bit anyway and am here typing this tripe.

I would say the Origo does its' job well, but lasts more like 10 - 11 rather than the advertised 12 hours, and I don't fancy refilling it with meths when it's obviously very hot.

 

[dylanwinter]

Trangia, candles and gas

here we are

time for this film

which will look a lot better if you watch it on youtube

click the little gear button to get the best resolution and watch it at5 least half screen size

I am still alive despite these death defying stunts


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUs1VDR2kkQ

 

[lenseman]

I have an Origo heatpal, I always leave the main hatch open a bit anyway and am here typing this tripe. . . . . .

No, NO, NO! You are supposed to cook and eat the tripe on the Origo.

It's everybody else on here who talks tripe!

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[Kelpie]

What I'd really like is to put in a flued heater of some description, but the Vega is quite small for one...

We have a Wallas paraffin heater in our Vega. Mounted on the forward face of the main bulkhead, to port, opposite the heads. The flue runs up the bulkhead to a screw-down bronze vent. Paraffin reservoir is a 5l plastic container in the locker underneath the heater.
The heater has vents both sides, one straight into the forecabin and the other going through the bulkhead into the saloon.

It's a very slim and neat little unit. Economical on fuel as well as electricity. Adequate heat for the size of boat, and useful for drying clothing too.
About the only downside is that they are expensive to buy (ours was installed by the previous owner) and they make a steady ticking noise whilst running, but you get used to that.

 

[V1701]

We have a Wallas paraffin heater in our Vega. Mounted on the forward face of the main bulkhead, to port, opposite the heads. The flue runs up the bulkhead to a screw-down bronze vent. Paraffin reservoir is a 5l plastic container in the locker underneath the heater.
The heater has vents both sides, one straight into the forecabin and the other going through the bulkhead into the saloon.

It's a very slim and neat little unit. Economical on fuel as well as electricity. Adequate heat for the size of boat, and useful for drying clothing too.
About the only downside is that they are expensive to buy (ours was installed by the previous owner) and they make a steady ticking noise whilst running, but you get used to that.

Thanks for that, I'll have a look at those...

 

[35mm]

I'll probably be told off for this, but I use a mini gas, ceramic, radiant heater with piezo ignition that I got in a shop a few months ago for about £20, and got a load of gas refills for about a £7 on special, bulk purchase offer. When not in use it fits neatly under the companionway steps. I pull it out a bit, away from the steps when in use. I always have ventilation open when I use it. It starts chucking out heat almost as soon as it's lit, and on a cold night the cabin is lovely and toasty after just 5 mins. I normally only run it for 5 to 10 mins at a time.

 

[lenseman]

i'll probably be told off for this, but i use a mini gas, ceramic, radiant heater with piezo ignition that i got in a shop a few months ago for about £20, and got a load of gas refills for about a £7 on special, bulk purchase offer. When not in use it fits neatly under the companionway steps. I pull it out a bit, away from the steps when in use. I always have ventilation open when i use it. It starts chucking out heat almost as soon as it's lit, and on a cold night the cabin is lovely and toasty after just 5 mins. I normally only run it for 5 to 10 mins at a time.

. . . . . . Boom!!!!!

. . . . . . . . . . . .

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[35mm]

. . . . . . Boom!!!!!

. . . . . . . . . . . .

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Ha ha! I think it's safer than having a gas cooker on board, which I don't, because I have a 2 ring spirit cooker. This heater is designed for camping, it has a lever on the side for disconnecting the gas tin when not in use, and the gas tins are small as is the heater. So if something stupid happened it would probably be more of a flash - puff than a BOOM. I think it's safer than using a trangia with flaming fuel slopping about, or candles precariously perched.

 

[BSSOffice]

.... When not in use it fits neatly under the companionway steps. I pull it out a bit, away from the steps when in use. ....

I think this is BOOM! reference by the previous respondent.

You are relying on the resilience of the seal either in the canister or the one between the canister and the appliance housing.

The key fact being that should the seal fail which is not uncommon in portable appliances, then the gas will fall to the lower parts of the craft interior.

There, the escaped gas can lay around until a source of ignition, such a static spark hits it.

Should the gas ignite, there is enough energy even in one of those small gas canisters to do serious damage to boat and anyone in the cabin at the time.

I was surprised how badly hurt these two boaters were by the explosion, despite it being an open boat and only a tiny canister 'Norfolk Broads portable gas canister explosion'

Within a cabin, if something does go wrong, the the rapidly expanding gases are trapped so the energy in any explosion is more destructive. Even if the ignition does not result in an explosion, uncontrolled burning can have spectacularly large flames which are not good in a confined space.

If I can paint a picture for you, the liquid, if it escapes from your gas canister, will expand to 250 times the volume to create an explosive vapour. So now imagine stowing 250 of those canisters in your cabin and that represents the size of the explosive cloud.

I have on file investigations from the USA, New Zealand and UK government organisations on the cause and effects of portable gas ignition incidents. Even the very modest events are serious enough to persuade me that gas canisters should be stored in self-draining lockers or open sites where there is free drainage overboard and no chance of vapours creeping into the craft interior.

Hope this helps

 

[lenseman]

I think this is BOOM! reference by the previous respondent.

You are relying on the resilience of the seal either in the canister or the one between the canister and the appliance housing. . . .

Don't worry about 35mm, he is spending far too much time worrying about his mooring on the Tamar and trying not to pay for the mooring buoys!

We will probably read about it soon on the "Saltash News" or the "Torpoint Times"!