More Greek rip offs?

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Stevie_T

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Having been recently stung by the Greek 'Private pleasure maritime traffic document' scam which seems to have replaced the outlawed Transit Visa for EU vessels. I was very surprised by the following incident.
We stopped in Messalongi for a couple of nights. The approach channel is an interesting place with stilted fishing huts, many of the holiday homes now, but still some genuine ones left.
The port is very uninteresting, moored against an expansive piece of concrete with no facilities (not even a bin) and a long walk into town. Still I liked the town, worth the walk, interesting architecture and very alive without feeling touristy.

These days I tend not to go looking for the port police to have my papers stamped unless its entering or leaving the country. On our second night a Norwegian converted Harbour patrol vessel joined us, with a charming liveaboard family on.
That same evening the Hellenic Coast guard visited asking us to take our papers to the Port police.
So I went accompanied by the Norwegian Skipper.
Cost to us 8 euros for 2 nights, cost to the Norwegian who's vessel was about 2 feet longer 12 euros for 1 night.
Reason? Norway is not in the EU

Now does any other EU country charge non EU vessels extra?
 
I really did not enjoy Greece or Greek Islands - found them mainly sort of tourist dumps intent on making as much as possible from visitors - the port officials just made up the rules and charged what they thought they good get away with - and the food was expensive and badly prepared.. Turkey is nice ... good value and super people.
 
The title of your post mentions "Greek rip offs".
Will you please precise how did you get "ripped off"?
You also mention "Having been recently stung by the Greek 'Private pleasure maritime traffic document' scam".
Will you please precise how have you been "stung" and why do you consider the "'Private pleasure maritime traffic document" a "scam"?
As about the pricing policy followed by the local authorities, will you please precise the size of the yachts in question? (And if possible remember to state the "tonnage" and not only the length, since the pricing model in Greece is based on the "tonnage" as you may know. So by the description that you provide of the Norwegian vessel, I can imagine that it may have been more heavy than a sailing vessel, even if it was only 2 feet longer.
Can you please precise whether the Norwegian vessel had any commercial "rights" apart from the usual privete yacht usage?
The port of Messologi is indeed very uninteresting, but you needn't go there to find out. Reading any good pilot would have been sufficient. Anyway nobody will tell you that this is some kind of pleasure craft port, so I don't see why anybody should expect more.
Please remember that wording like "scam, rip off" etc. may seem rather strong and need a strong backing in accordonance.

Any way have some happy sailing!
 
It will be interesting to see the reply to your posting!

FWIW I had a flotilla holiday on the Ionian a few years ago. Wonderful!
 
Dear Michael,
the port officials do not make up the rules, and certainly they do not charge as much as they can get away with.
The pricing model is very clear and well known to anyone who is willing to have a look at the official papers presented to them.
The principle difference is that many people from the Greek Coast Guard turn a blind eye, and do charge less and in many occasions do not charge at all, for the simple reason that most of them are locals and they do so to help the local tourism, even if that means that they do not serve well their employer, the Greek State.
As about the prices charged, this summer I was once docked at the island of Lipsi next to a Turkish gullet. The following morning the Turkish captain was surprised that they charged him only 1 (one) euro for the electricity he used. He told me that back in Bodrum where he is based they charge him 20 euros per night.
About the "tourist dumps". I concede that places like Mykonos are no better than London Tower in that point of view.
But when I want to visit England, I trust some good guidebooks to avoid the "tourist dumps". Why don't you try the same next time you visit Greece.
The same method can easily be used to find good places to eat.
Use common sense.

Wish you happy sailing!
 
tassosp
Firstly welcome to the forums.
Regarding Mesalongi, I did say it was an uninteresting port, but I also said that the approach was interesting and I did say that I liked the town. In fact I would go there again as I like the places not so many yachts go to. Also I did not claim to get ripped off there myself. I do not complain about the price we were charged, but it would be nice to think our 4 Euros a night could contribute towards the supply and emptying of a dustbin.
You said I do not need to go there to find out, true but as one of the few ports on the North Coast of Patraikos we went there to shelter from a strong Meltemi when heading west.
Whilst I do not know the tonnage of the Norwegian vessel I do know that my own vessel is 14 tonnes, I am quite sure that the Norwegian vessel was not three times heavier than us and was not registered or used commercially. However they were charged three times the price.
Also when I asked the Port Police why they were charged so much, I was told it was because Norway was not in the EU. Plain and simple.
Why not ask the Americans how there prices differ from EU members in Greek Ports?

Regarding the Private pleasure maritime traffic document, perhaps you can explain what that is all about? As members of the EU we do not need a transit Visa even though greece continued to enforce one well after EU membership. Having been forced to stop this practice, they then introduce this totally unnecessary (IMO)new document which is just a way to squeeze more money out of EU pleasure vessels. If it is so necessarry in Greece, why don't we need one anywhere else in Europe?

Other than that I enjoy sailing in Greece and find most of the out of the way places friendly and helpful, and you are right to say that many Ports turn a blind eye to charges.
 
You are quite right in the points you raise.
I must admit I didn't know that vessels from outside the EU are charged in a different way.
In fact I'm not familiar with the "Private pleasure maritime traffic document" either. This just highlights the fact that most of the people - like me - are unaware of things that do not affect them directly.
About the "Private pleasure maritime traffic document", knowing the way Greek bureaucracy works, I don't really believe they created it to get money.
They do charge for it, since every bureaucratic creation is to charge something, but from what I remember reading in the Greek sailing press, it must have something to do with the pressure from Greek chartering companies to keep foreigners away from the chartering businness in Greece. But I offer this explanation with caution, since I have not done a serious research on the subject.
About the garbage collection at Messologi, my opinion is that it should exist at the port regardless of the port fees. Things like that really upset me, and be certain that I will be calling the Messologi Mulicipality to raise the subject with them.

Anyway thanks for the forum welcoming, and once more I wish you happy sailing.
I have not really been active on the fora but if you have any question about sailing in Greece, I will try to help.
 
I think you are being more than a bit OTT re a very small charge for a two night stay. Ok it`s not the most attractive of places but then as another user mentioned you would have known this by reading your pilot. I have sailed in the Ionian over 12 weeks this year alone and have paid the princely sum of around 20 euros IN TOTAL and have always found the locak port police to be ok. Regarding the docs you mention this is complete mystery to me as all we ever are asked to show is our SSR. Maybe you should relax and try to communicate with the locals more you`ll find it works. If not theres always Turkey I suppose!
 
Chris
Please read my post correctly, I am not complaining about the charge of my 2 night stay, in fact I said the opposite! I was complaining about the differential for non EU boats.
Also if you were to actually read my post I qualified what I thought of Messalongi and why I was there, I was on passage from Turkey to Preveza and unlike sailing only in the 'flotilla' areas sometimes one stops at a port for other reasons than the pilot saying what a beautiful place it is.
Secondly I can assure you of the documents required, if you have only been round the tourist circuit in the ionian you may not have been asked for it, messalongi was the last place I had to show it. I had to buy it in Simi and had to pay and have it stamped in Sitia (Crete) Kiato (Gulf of Corinth) and Messalongi.
Also I made no complaint about the local Port Police so please don't quote me out of context.
Lastly, regarding communicating with the locals, please do not patronise me, I suggest you try reading the posts before replying, you'll find it works.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Now does any other EU country charge non EU vessels extra?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know the answer to your question. However they are clearly entitled to do so if they wish and, if you feel strongly about it, you are entitled to stay away. It seems a small matter to get worked up about.
 
Just to clarify a few points:

The so called 'Circulation Tax' introduced by the Greek government about five years ago for yachts cruising in Greek waters was deemed illegal by the EU and has been withdrawn.

All EU Yachts (including Greek flagged) must down obtain the “Private Pleasure Maritime Traffic Document” mentioned by Hannabella. It is more commonly known by an acronym of its name in Greek namely “DEKPA” The charge for a DEKPA is €30.00. It is a 6-page A3 booklet that, in theory, you are required to have stamped by the Port Police on entry to and exit from each port visited.

The most important rule to observe is to never, ever leave a port for which you have been stamped in without also being stamped out as doing so will lead to a hefty fine. If you tell them you are leaving at 5.00 a.m. most Port Police will stamp you out when they stamp you in which is fine, but a few will not. If their office is 2 miles from your mooring and/or at the top of a steep hill this can be a real pain and it is this problem that has lead many yachties to adopt the principle of never visiting the Port Police unles specifically ordered to.
 
[ QUOTE ]
However they are clearly entitled to do so if they wish and, if you feel strongly about it, you are entitled to stay away. It seems a small matter to get worked up about.

[/ QUOTE ]
A small matter? Well maybe, I don't know your salary, but to the Norwegian family on a budget I can assure you it was a big deal. They had just entered Greece on there way to Turkey having sailed from Norway, through the canals to France and the Med.
They were on a tight budget and the thought of paying this at every greek port was a shock to them.
Some may think they shouldn't be out there I guess without enough money in their bank acount to pay three times the price of others, perhaps Greece has a right to charge this but does that mean I should shut up and accept it or go elsewhere?

The UK has a right to charge full tax on marine diesel but there are enough people squealing about it and thats just bringing it into line with the rest of Europe. Greece in this matter is out of line with the rest of Europe.
 
Thanks for clarifying that Medman.
I had no idea Greek flagged vessels require one though! Are you certain? because last October I had Charter in the Aegean and didnt have one. Also Tassosp doesn't appear to of heard of it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
perhaps Greece has a right to charge this but does that mean I should shut up and accept it or go elsewhere?
.

[/ QUOTE ]

Frankly, yes!

It still believe in the old adage that "when in Rome" etc.
 
Just to add to the pot.I think there are further changes to the paper chase.I got stamped out of Preveza and moved to a marina berth in Lefkada.I checked in to Lefkada Port police and said I was now berthed for the summer in Lefkada.OK no problem but you must come every month and renew the stamp.If you cruise locally no need to book in at every port because you are below 10 m but if you are above 10m then you must stamp in and out as before.
A newly arrived 34ft uk flagged from Italy.had to buy the Depka.
but the Port police gave conflicting advice about stamping in and out.as usual confusion reigns.watch this space I will try to find out what is the latestin the Ionian, which may not apply elswhere in Greece!!!
 
Being under 10 m I no longer need a dekpa but when I had one I got over the need to stamp out by telling te port police that I was leaving tomorrow for a place without port police 'subject to the weather'. They would then stamp me in and out at the same time. It also cut down on the passing of Euro.

The money the port police collect is not for them but for the local port authority. They are duty bound to collect it when specifically required to but only do it when they have to because it gets in the way of things they would rather be doing.

As for the Norwegans didn't they vote to stay out of the EU? Maybe your friends should get another vote going! Anyway they won't have to pay it in many Greek ports.

How lucky we are to be in the EU. [ Put this in just to get a few going!]
 
I am reasonably certain that Greek flagged yachts are technically required to have a DEKPA - that is how the Greek authorities justified the system to the EU. A country can have any system it likes so long as all EU countries, including the host country, are treated the same. However, whether or not they actually do, and whether or not the Port Police enforce it are entirely different matters!

As a matter of interest, I have had my DEKPA since arriving in Corfu in 2002 and, despite 2 years in the middle in Turkey, it has been accepted wherever I have presented it in Greece this year without question.
 
Gaios on Paxos.....

..was imposing three rates last year, one for Greeks, another (X2) for other EU and a third (X4) for non-EU vessels. When told that this was illegal the "parking attendant" said "so what? This is Paxos law". I havn't seen him this year so far. We will be visiting Gaios within the next few days though.

There is a feeling that as Greece provides the facilities, then it's citizens should get them free or at least cheaper. Hardly adherance to EU law and certainly not true since most of the rebuilding and ALL of the street lighting in these harbours has been provided by EU cash.

If I visit Yarmouth IoW I pay the standard going rate, full stop How come these soddin furriners can't get a grasp of fair play?

Steve Cronin
 
Re: Gaios on Paxos.....

That is a bit naughty! Greece is, of course, a relative newcomer to the EU and I suppose that these things take time to get sorted out.

A different subject but, on the question of furiners, I suspect that the Greeks feel the same about the Elgin Marbles. These things do work both ways.
 
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