Praxinoscope
Well-Known Member
I have often wondered how locktite copes with regular dowsing of seawater. Our harbourmaster would be writing me grumpy letters if he could see seizing on my shackles.
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Mooring Swivel
- Thread starter Neeves
- Start date
I have often wondered how locktite copes with regular dowsing of seawater. Our harbourmaster would be writing me grumpy letters if he could see seizing on my shackles.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
I started using it quite a few years ago as a result of exactly that question being raised on the forum. Fot the first year I measured torques to make up and disassemble after a season's use and found no deterioration. I have never bothered since but it is always a struggle to undo the shackle and Kong swivel. We anchor a lot and will sometimes spend a week several times per season without lifting the anchor.
Yngmar
Well-Known Member
Loctite Fluid Compatibility Chart (no issues with using any of the common threadlockers in seawater - they can handle much worse). We use 242 on anchor shackle, Kong swivel and the Saildrive anode bolts as well as the cone locking bolt.
The saildrive bits are permanently underwater. No issues and undoing them after two years in the water showed intact, dry (cured) thread sealant when they came out. Didn't measure torque or anything - only when doing them up
The saildrive bits are permanently underwater. No issues and undoing them after two years in the water showed intact, dry (cured) thread sealant when they came out. Didn't measure torque or anything - only when doing them up
Kukri
Well-Known Member
I’m sure Loctite is good, but you cannot see that it is there, so components can be overlooked.
As a young lawyer I acted for the American owners of an 87ft Alden schooner, a very beautiful and very well cared for vessel, in a Lloyd’s Form salvage claim by a tug that had towed her into Malta.
The “horseshoe nail” that precipitated the chain of events that led to this schooner getting into distress was that nobody had seized the stainless steel shackle on the main boom topping lift. She was a very valuable vessel and the salvage award, despite my calling Hum Barton and Des Sleightholme as expert witnesses (and Des had been for some years the skipper of the ICC’s slightly smallrer “Hoshi”) was not small.
I got religion about stainless steel shackles. As I was looking over the boat I was deciding to buy, a couple of weeks ago, I inevitably glanced at the topping lift shackle and guess what - another quarter turn and it would have been in the cockpit, killing anyone under it. Always professionally maintained, and laid up by one of the best yards in the country...
Locktite is good, but belt and braces, please. Cable ties cost pennies. A roll of Monel seizing wire is a tenner...
As a young lawyer I acted for the American owners of an 87ft Alden schooner, a very beautiful and very well cared for vessel, in a Lloyd’s Form salvage claim by a tug that had towed her into Malta.
The “horseshoe nail” that precipitated the chain of events that led to this schooner getting into distress was that nobody had seized the stainless steel shackle on the main boom topping lift. She was a very valuable vessel and the salvage award, despite my calling Hum Barton and Des Sleightholme as expert witnesses (and Des had been for some years the skipper of the ICC’s slightly smallrer “Hoshi”) was not small.
I got religion about stainless steel shackles. As I was looking over the boat I was deciding to buy, a couple of weeks ago, I inevitably glanced at the topping lift shackle and guess what - another quarter turn and it would have been in the cockpit, killing anyone under it. Always professionally maintained, and laid up by one of the best yards in the country...
Locktite is good, but belt and braces, please. Cable ties cost pennies. A roll of Monel seizing wire is a tenner...
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Yngmar
Well-Known Member
Neither the Kong swivel nor the flush pin shackle has anything to attach a cable tie or any other seizing to. Loctite is the manufacturer recommended solution for the Kong swivel, and it works well.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Yes. I know that. And it works perfectly as long as someone remembers to use it. I am not doubting either the Kong swivel (used by thousands) or Loctite, used by millions; it’s just that, knowing my own weaknesses, I like to have a visual marker that something has been done, or needs to be done. I have a label by each seacock telling me what it is for and which way is closed, and I hang the engine starter keys on the exhaust seacock.
P&O Ferries avoided a repetition of the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster by installing a board with hooks in the wheelhouse; if any key was missing it meant that a watertight door wasn’t closed. Cost: a few quid and more reliable than electric sensors and lights.
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lw395
Well-Known Member
Cable ties are not very strong. Seizing wire is prone to being torn off by stray ropes or cretins lassooing your mooring.
Loctite seems to work. Replacing the shackle pin with a bolt and adding a lock nut is an enhancement.
I've done some mooring bits this way, and not only does it show no signs of coming undone, when you get the big spanners out and have it apart, you find the loctite has protected the threads from corrosion.
Around here, the grown-ups weld mooring shackles and that works.
Swivels can never be trusted for very long, the best bet seems to be buying one that is grossly over sized.
Never mix galv, S/S and bare steel underwater. At least not in Pompey harbour.
Whatever your swivel was rated at in the chandlers, once it's been in the water a week or two what matters is brute mass of steel and how recently you had a damn good look at it.
There is a lot to be said for putting the swivel between the top of the buoy and the bow roller, if you can make that work.
Loctite seems to work. Replacing the shackle pin with a bolt and adding a lock nut is an enhancement.
I've done some mooring bits this way, and not only does it show no signs of coming undone, when you get the big spanners out and have it apart, you find the loctite has protected the threads from corrosion.
Around here, the grown-ups weld mooring shackles and that works.
Swivels can never be trusted for very long, the best bet seems to be buying one that is grossly over sized.
Never mix galv, S/S and bare steel underwater. At least not in Pompey harbour.
Whatever your swivel was rated at in the chandlers, once it's been in the water a week or two what matters is brute mass of steel and how recently you had a damn good look at it.
There is a lot to be said for putting the swivel between the top of the buoy and the bow roller, if you can make that work.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
That raises the question of what the swivel is really doing.
I admit that I mistrust them. Let’s assume that a boat on a mooring does occasionally drop the mooring and go for a sail. The mooring riser promptly untwists itself (I’ve seen my mooring buoy doing this and I fancy everyone else has, which suggests that the swivel wasn’t doing much) so no problem.
By using the type of large diameter bow roller with a groove in it I found I didn’t need a Kong. With a little persuasion the anchor untwisted itself on the way up.
I accept that where a chain from the mooring comes on deck, or a boat uses two anchors, the situation calls for a swivel.
I admit that I mistrust them. Let’s assume that a boat on a mooring does occasionally drop the mooring and go for a sail. The mooring riser promptly untwists itself (I’ve seen my mooring buoy doing this and I fancy everyone else has, which suggests that the swivel wasn’t doing much) so no problem.
By using the type of large diameter bow roller with a groove in it I found I didn’t need a Kong. With a little persuasion the anchor untwisted itself on the way up.
I accept that where a chain from the mooring comes on deck, or a boat uses two anchors, the situation calls for a swivel.
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Praxinoscope
Well-Known Member
I have used a swivel on my bow mooring for over 15 years, I two chains coming up to the swivel then two rope strops from the swivel to the port & stbd deck cleats. The swivel helps keep the strops from twisting.
I check all the components of my drying mooring regularly as does our harbourmaster who checks everyone’s moorings at least once a fortnight.
Never had any problems, and I find that two cable ties per shackle hold everything to gather perfectly.
I check all the components of my drying mooring regularly as does our harbourmaster who checks everyone’s moorings at least once a fortnight.
Never had any problems, and I find that two cable ties per shackle hold everything to gather perfectly.
afterpegassus
Well-Known Member
[There is a lot to be said for putting the swivel between the top of the buoy and the bow roller, if you can make that work.[/QUOTE]
Exactly where my swivel is. I only have one shackle under the water to bother about and with the swivel on top of the buoy It is easy to keep a close eye on it.
Exactly where my swivel is. I only have one shackle under the water to bother about and with the swivel on top of the buoy It is easy to keep a close eye on it.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I conducted the same test as Vyv and measured actual torque. I went a bit further than Vyv and allowed the Loctite to set in air and some the loctite was applied and I screwed shackle together under water and allowed them to set under water. Drying in air was stronger, but it was marginal and the amount of torque needed to free the loctitie that need heat to release was considerable.
I'm a convert and have a bottle of loctite and shackle key stored together.
I accept Minn's suggestion of belt and braces and if recommending anyone else too use Loctite I would say, also seize. I'm pretty religious myself and am constantly tweaking our ground tackle, different shackles, different anchors etc etc - and changing monel wire would be heavy going.
Belt and braces are unnecessary - but does give the instant and visual reassurance.
Jonathan
https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_64/features/Adhesives-Test_11972-1.html
I'm a convert and have a bottle of loctite and shackle key stored together.
I accept Minn's suggestion of belt and braces and if recommending anyone else too use Loctite I would say, also seize. I'm pretty religious myself and am constantly tweaking our ground tackle, different shackles, different anchors etc etc - and changing monel wire would be heavy going.
Belt and braces are unnecessary - but does give the instant and visual reassurance.
Jonathan
https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_64/features/Adhesives-Test_11972-1.html
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noelex
Well-Known Member
This is a good summary of some of the Loctite products that are useful:
http://www.wdarc.org/Loctite Guide.pdf
We need a very reliable means of attaching the cain to the anchor, or to a mooring block. To determine if any particular method achieves this level of security via experimentation is difficult. A very large number of trials, combined with some decent statistical analysis is needed.
Studies like this are worth reading if you are interested in the subject:
http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6898&context=etd
http://www.wdarc.org/Loctite Guide.pdf
We need a very reliable means of attaching the cain to the anchor, or to a mooring block. To determine if any particular method achieves this level of security via experimentation is difficult. A very large number of trials, combined with some decent statistical analysis is needed.
Studies like this are worth reading if you are interested in the subject:
http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6898&context=etd
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
I think Vyv ran some tests, and noted the tests above, and has declared he uses Loctite. He has voted with his feet. I have conducted tests and use Loctite, I too have voted with my feet.
There are many different Lactate products. I really don't see any need for more tests - unless you are willing to do them. Vyv and I have found Loctite's that work. We, or at least I, don't see any need for further tests. Anyone not convinced can use Loctite (and back up with mousing wire) until they are comfortable. Mouing wire is proven - so there is no risk for the individual.
Personally I can find more productive areas to investigate than 're-inventing the wheel'.
Jonathan
Edit If you find fault with the tests conducted, please define in detail - I am always willing to learn and find better ways to investigate.
close edit
There are many different Lactate products. I really don't see any need for more tests - unless you are willing to do them. Vyv and I have found Loctite's that work. We, or at least I, don't see any need for further tests. Anyone not convinced can use Loctite (and back up with mousing wire) until they are comfortable. Mouing wire is proven - so there is no risk for the individual.
Personally I can find more productive areas to investigate than 're-inventing the wheel'.
Jonathan
Edit If you find fault with the tests conducted, please define in detail - I am always willing to learn and find better ways to investigate.
close edit
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Kukri
Well-Known Member
To clarify, I’m perfectly sure that Loctite works. It works all over the world on everything. My concern is that you cannot see that it is there. On first principles, that means that there is a risk that it’s application can be overlooked. Hence belt and braces, you can’t see the Loctite but you can easily see a cable tie.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Minn.
Agree entirely - if you are doing it yourself, for yourself, hopefully self preservation is a strong motive. When you rely on a contractor it is much better to be able to see that whatever should be secure - is secure.
I saw a commercially applied AF, over the anodes of a sail drive (the owner would never know about this - when he picks his yacht up from its wet berth). I see stainless bolts inserted into aluminium and unless the Duralac application is a bit sloppy - you don't know (unless you did it yourself) without taking it all apart - which defeats employing a contractor.
Having a visual indication that a task has been done correctly, especially for something critical, is comforting.
Jonathan
Agree entirely - if you are doing it yourself, for yourself, hopefully self preservation is a strong motive. When you rely on a contractor it is much better to be able to see that whatever should be secure - is secure.
I saw a commercially applied AF, over the anodes of a sail drive (the owner would never know about this - when he picks his yacht up from its wet berth). I see stainless bolts inserted into aluminium and unless the Duralac application is a bit sloppy - you don't know (unless you did it yourself) without taking it all apart - which defeats employing a contractor.
Having a visual indication that a task has been done correctly, especially for something critical, is comforting.
Jonathan
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
But then how do you know you have changed the engine oil, filters, etc. Answer: keep a log.
SteveA
Well-Known Member
We've recently had a boat break free from its mooring where the shackle was still connected but the D had been deformed to such an extent that it came away from the ground chain. The pin was still moused on with monel and tie wraps but the threads had corroded letting the pin pull out. This use of Loctite should stop this and I will be using this idea in future - many thanks!!
Praxinoscope
Well-Known Member
Not quite sure that using locative would have prevented this, the same forces would apply on the thread whether loctited or seized. I’m inclined to adopt the belt & braces of loctite and seizing.
SteveA
Well-Known Member
I agree with the belt and braces approach but the reason the pin came out was because of the amount of corrosion around the threads - I would hope that the Loctite would stop this from happening
Praxinoscope
Well-Known Member
I can see your argument, but not sure it’s absolutely correct, but it maybe.