Mooring rights on your own fundus

[nauti-buoy]

Hi all, not entirely sure where to start but I have exhausted google and cannot seem to get a conclusive answer.
I own my own small quay with slipway and (unusually) over 700 foot of the fundus out from my quay wall which already has 2 moorings on it. It is on a tidal creek and does not come under any harbour authority.
I had a declaration/indemnity from the seller when I bought it to confirm they laid the moorings on the fundus in 1981 and then moored their boats on said moorings for the next 30 years.
I now wish to place further moorings on said fundus and have made the relevant application to the MMO, however, I am met with much local and Council resistance because (in hindsight foolishly) I have divulged that I want them to place my barge on with a view to live on it.
I realise that I will need PP if I were to live there as it constitutes development being a change of use for the land.
My question is....if my application to lay new moorings is declined could I just anchor it there? Someone has also said that because the moorings have been there so long and I have proof they were laid by the old owner before the time when licencing was applicable then infact I have "mooring rights" on the fundus effectively meaning I can lay as many moorings on my own fundus as I like WITHOUT application to anybody.
I was wondering if anyone could clarify this? Or suggest a way round it should I not be able to lay the mooring blocks I require to secure my barge. I would not be living there as it is not converted presently.
Any advice/ideas greatfully received.

 

[duncan99210]

I'd have said that you'll need a lawyer who specialises in this sort of stuff.

 

[nauti-buoy]

Thank you......do you know of any?

 

[jdc]

Hmm,

is this a genuine enquiry seeking actual responses?

1. have you used the MMO interactive tool: https://marinelicensing.marinemanag...IZARD/direct?WQ_GROUP_MNEM=APPLICATION_WIZARD

If so what did it reveal?

2. As I understand your first post you haven't been refused / your application turned down yet. Why do you think it will be? There has to be grounds you know. Have you rehearsed what these would be and how you'd refute them? Do you know how to appeal?

3. You say that there have been 2 moorings for ever, but you wish to lay more. Why more? Are there already occupiers of these which preclude you from using one of them?

4. Just how confident are you that the Crown Estate have passed to you all rights to the fundus and have not retained any interest? This is pretty important: without it the MMO application is from the wrong party isn't it?

A fuller disclosure would probably get more informed responses; heaven knows I'm no expert but 1 minute with Google turned up these rather obvious questions which anyone trying to advise would need to ask.

 

[nauti-buoy]

Hello, yes this is genuine...I have no reason to be wasting anybody`s time!
I have used this tool, but it is not categorical, it ends up saying I MAY need a Marine Licence
Not refused yet, but the Council are seem to know what to say to have it refused even though they are lying (yes I did just say that!)
Correct, call me greedy but I have more than one boat.
I am as confident as my conveyancer has led me to believe and have no reason to question otherwise, what with the fundus being on my deeds.
What further information would be required for more informed responses?
Many thanks, for your response.

 

[Portofino]

Are the “other moorings “ - the existing ones used for permanent habitation ?

Was thinking in general planning issues with land ( Ok yours has the sea flowing up / down - tides etc ? ) the council or governing body has a master plan and local plan with development control .

These plans show areas earmarked for various useage or NOT

Some part of those development plans has the apporoch to useage regarding “ permanent dwellings “ and indeed other dwelling s like caravans, holiday lodges and such like .These latter abodes may have restrictions of useage like for X months only .
So you could play that card if any other precedent s nearby have been set ?

How ever assuming you can legitimately get round if necessary or use the “development plan “ to your advantage to get a dwelling with some sort of resident status —— they may bowl you out on a technicality = sewage disposal

How are you gonna manage that , what are you gonna tell them if permanent residency is what you are after by plonking the barge ( vessel ) on either an existing mooring or creating another ?

You see are folks suppose to be living aboard Permanently on anything in the 1st place ?

Summary it’s not the ownership that’s in question it’s the useage .

Bit like buying a field to graze a horse at the edge of a village in a green belt or what ever .A zone NOT earmarked for residential development.
Nice box for the horse , put in Power for lights in winter , a tap , now water , perhaps a veranda, to sit on and watch the sun set on a summers evening with a glass of wine .
A cess pit , a toilet for when you down there—- a seperate spleeping area for yourself a TV aerial , a better parking area for he vehicle etc etc etc
Sooner or later perhaps between your own abode you start to spend more ans more nights there ,
See what I mean the useage is now morphing into a permanent/ semi permanent home
Horse dies and is not replaced -

Oik from the councils turns up and asks you why are you living here ?

You say waving the deeds in his face “ I own this land “
The horse is dead and I have done up the box .

 

[nauti-buoy]

Hi thank you for your input, some of it is useful but I feel my original post is perhaps not clear.
At this juncture I am not looking to the residential side of things. I am just looking at putting it there in some way, maybe anchoring?
Just so I have a plan B if I do not get granted permission to put new mooring blocks in, the 2 there are not man enough to hold what I intend to moor.
As far as I know they have not been used for residential purposes and could not be without applying for PP.
I am not trying to get around PP, I will not live there without it, but I can still keep the barge there right? This would save me my storage fees by keeping it on my own fundus. As I say I am trying to find out the historic mooring rights side of things at the moment.

 

[Capt Popeye]

I might have misunderstood the issue; but, cannot you moor your Barge against the Quay ?

If you own the Quay and its empty of other craft, why not moor there, then as the Council gets used to your Barge being there, they just might actually like the idea ?

 

[shan]

... or beef up the current moorings...

 

[nauti-buoy]

... or beef up the current moorings...

How would you propose I beef them up? I also need 2 more to stop it swinging onto other fundus that is not mine

 

[nauti-buoy]

I might have misunderstood the issue; but, cannot you moor your Barge against the Quay ?

If you own the Quay and its empty of other craft, why not moor there, then as the Council gets used to your Barge being there, they just might actually like the idea ?

The quay is very small, 25 feet wide, so I have to moor perpendicular to the quay out on my own fundus, stern to the quay. Plus I have heard (although cannot recall where) that to attach mooring line to the quay itself would constitute a planning application as it is a fixing to the shore, whereas a fixing to the fundus (ie mooring chain/block) requires MMO licence........this could be complete rubbish but heard it somewhere.

 

[Capt Popeye]

The quay is very small, 25 feet wide, so I have to moor perpendicular to the quay out on my own fundus, stern to the quay. Plus I have heard (although cannot recall where) that to attach mooring line to the quay itself would constitute a planning application as it is a fixing to the shore, whereas a fixing to the fundus (ie mooring chain/block) requires MMO licence........this could be complete rubbish but heard it somewhere.

Humm duno where you get your info from, might be correct but, craft have been mooring up either Stern or Bow on to moorings, jetty's, quays, harbour walls, for generations now , might be different if the craft is Lived On though, so best get the craft in position before that happens, eh ?

Does your land extend either side of your jetty /quay , so if moored across it will your craft encroach onto others land or beach /foreshore ?

Also cannot see that a temporarily moored craft attached by mooring lines is a permanent attachment.

 

[lpdsn]

Sounds like it would be worthwhile you joining the RYA so you can get a bit of advice. They at least should be able to point you at someone who knows the area.

 

[nauti-buoy]

Sounds like it would be worthwhile you joining the RYA so you can get a bit of advice. They at least should be able to point you at someone who knows the area.

thank you, will look into that