Mooring buoys and legal matters

[Gludy]

I ran into a rope on a mooring bouy over the weekend and managed to cut the bouy up - lots of rope around prop etc - had to have a diver cut me loose but no damage done.

I left the mooring line attached to one of my fenders and a telephone number etc.

I have no problem out of courtesy in restoring the buoy etc - however, out of interest, I would like to know the legal position.

Folks place private bouys all over the place and in some cases even have long floating ropes ready to attach themselves to the unwary etc. Are such mooring buoys placed at the risk of the owner? Does the owner of the bouy have a right to compensation for damage?

Do lobster pot owners have any claim for damages when someone fouls one of their pots? Or can anyone litter the seas with pots and be protected by the law should someone hit them?

Its a subject that has never occured to me before and I would be interested in the legal position.



<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

I would say so, if you were so close as to pick up his mooring lines as you passed then you were too close and not at a 'safe navigational distance', I just made that up, a legal eagle I am not.

But, you were in a moorings and should have expected bits of rope to be connected to the floaty things. So IMO it is your fault and you should put it right. I would, it would piss me off buying replacements, but I would take it on the chin.

As for little floats in the middle of the sea, esp. at night, cut em free and forget, thats what I say!

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>

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[Gludy]

Whilst not really disagreeing with you the fact is that I expect to have lobster pots scattered all over the place and seek to know the logical difference between them and mooring buoys.

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[Gludy]

Also what about the buoys using floating line that can extend out 100 feet and offer a navigational hazard - if you pick one of those up and ruin your props can you claim from the buoy owner or do you let him claim from you?

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[l'escargot]

You can't get anything worth eating off the bottom of a mooring buoy? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[rich]

My mooring is a for and aft, ie: 2 lines on bow. 2 on stern, some boats come out at weekends and just pick up and Tye to the buoy, and then get angry because the rest of the lines get round there PROP!

<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.jersey-harbours.com

 

[duncan]

Re: any connection?

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=ym&Number=567266&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&part=>http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=ym&Number=567266&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&part=</A>

<hr width=100% size=1>madesco madidum ..../forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Nick_H]

I get to deal with a fair few liability issues at work. My opinion is that if someone knowingly leaves an excessive amount of floating rope attached to a crab pot buoy, and it gets caught round your props and does some damage, you would have a legitimate claim against them. The key legal points may be 1) did they knowingly leave the rope trailing. 2) how much is excessive 3) could they have reasonably foreseen the damage it may cause. That said I'm not a lawyer, and its all pretty irrelevant cos you'd never find out who owns the damn thing anyway.

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[Gludy]

Re: any connection?

No connection - I informed the buoy owner and coughed up the cost of restoring it all - they were very good about it and have actually offered the buoy for me to use every time I visit the area (they make little use of it).... so its rather a pleasant outcome and could have been much worse.

My post is about the legal position because it poses some tricky points and there must be some maritime law on it.




<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[duncan]

Re: any connection?

understood.

re the legal side relating to fishing gear I understand that it is not an offense per se to leave a buoy unless local requlations prohibit it. However if you do not comply with the regulations, or guidance issued by a department in the case of commercial fishermen, then this would be a major factor in establising liability.
Commercial fishermen get as anoyed about craft chewing up their dans as boaters do about their presence! However adding a wire strop would probably make a fisheman liable for damage to a boat; and if the fishing gear isn't marked then the boater won't be able to contact the owner to pay for a buoy!

<hr width=100% size=1>madesco madidum ..../forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[tcm]

Aha! welcome back Gludy

Well, that is indeed an excellent outcome! I earnestly hope that you new friendship blosssoms, and who knows - perhaps leading to friendship between other youthful mebers of the two families, which is a possible since both have an interest in boating, and although of course it's early days it can't be impossible that there mite one day be a marriage between various members of your two families, and thereafter the offspring will grow up with similar traits of wisdom, responsibility and pleasantness, and so eventually will probably be prime minister and, with inherent wisdom as above will rid us of fuel duty, tons of income tax, daft foreign policy and lots more....BUT, note that it is all thanks to you NOT having bought a boat with jets! - cos they wdn't have wrecked the mooring line like the props did, of course.

So, in heavily advising against the jets, I will (provisionally) take a fair amount of responsibility should this rather outlandishly hopeful and farfetched scenario ever come to pass in reality.

welcome back paul, anyway.

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[Gludy]

Re: Aha! welcome back Gludy

If I were ever king I would simply have to knight you TCM for services rendered in your anti-jet campaign.

You were the one who brought up the major argument that counted - that is the future deprecation was an unknown factor on such a different boat - that is why I did not go to jets. However my next boat will not only be bigger but will be able to dry out and have 3000 mile fuel range so I can escape from UK marine diesel being the highest priced in the world.

As regards you taking the glory for whatever outcome may come from my props ripping a mooring to bits, I have to agree providing you can also shoulder the blame if things do not work out so well and we have actually met a sadistic killer etc.

As usual, of course, you are way of subject and have expressed no views on the serious legal questions I have posed here



<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[Observer]

Re: any connection?

Not sure if there is specific maritime law. My assessment of common law position is:

1. Mooring owner may be liable for damages if boat owner can show that mooring owner owed him a duty of care and was negligent. If it's a private mooring, it's at least arguable that the boat owner had no business going so close to it that he ended up with rope round his prop. On the other hand, if the rope was so long that it presented a navigational hazard, a claim could possibly succeed.

2. Similar position for liability for damaged mooring. If the boat owner negligently ran over the mooring, he could be liable in damages to the mooring owner.

The burden of proof to show negligence is on the damaged party and it's usually pretty hard to do. So, in practice, it would be very difficult to pursue a claim and likely uneconomic anyway. The only way I see this as at all likely to be tested is if the damage (say to the boat) was significant (say ripped out a prop shaft), owner claims on insurance and the insurance company decides it has a good enough claim to pursue against the mooring owner.

This is not like reversing into somebody's wall in your car where the negligence aspect is almost self-evident. Perhaps a bit more like a walker crossing a stile on a public footpath and ripping an expensive jacket on a nail or damaging the stile as he crosses it.

You obviously did the decent thing - what's that saying: "Cast thy bread upon the waters for thou shalt find it after many days"?

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://aflcharters.co.uk>Dream Dancer</A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Observer on 07/09/2004 13:05 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[tcm]

Re: Aha! welcome back Gludy

I really think it's a bit of a fanciful leap from you being closely related to the PM to you being crowned as King Paul! Normally, the PM would just submit a list, and seeing as how this is easily the most likely route to my becoming knight of the realm, and i allow my name to go forward, thankyou.

Sepretly, i hardly think it's likely that a sadistic killer would have the time for boating, or at least have a spare mooring buoy. Mind you, since it had a peculiarly long line it almost seems far too coincidental that he's now very suspiciously allowed you to use the mooring AGAIN - almost as though he was planning on whoever came anywhere near the mooring line would indeed become ensnared and then befriended, with obvious future opportunities for sadistic (or even not very sadistic) killing opportunities. Yes, it's all blindingly obvious and I must apologise in advance. Of course, the other scenario might still happen, provided that the future prime minister can keep the skeleton (i.e. you, I'm afraid) firmly in the cupboard.

Whcihbrings us back to the legals, which as you say i had omitted to mention earlier. Bearing in mind all the above, I think you will be fine to pre-emptively kill the owner of the mooring buoy. The defence of a pre-emptive strike against an obvious terrorist might or might work, but it will be much better to do ten years with parole rather than get killed yourself, and that's the only other option, really.

Hope this all helps





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[Gludy]

Re: Aha! welcome back Gludy

It is typical that you hand out advice that is just too bl#### late to have any effect.

I mean why did you not offer the advice about a premptive strike before I hit the mooring rope?

Or could it be, not that I am paranoid, that your arguments to persude me out of buying a jet boat, as you have freely admitted led directly to this incident whereby I am snared within the gasps of a killer...... and I fell for it all, even offering to knight you!!!!

You no doubt have a very fast 70 foot boat tethered somewhere just waiting to make your escape if it all gets too hot .... just watch out for the mooring buoys as you leave ...




<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[gandy]

Re: \"Private\" mooring

"If it's a private mooring, it's at least arguable that the boat owner had no business going so close to it that he ended up with rope round his prop. "

I assume that this is in tidal waters, so presumably the mooring owner doesn't own the seabed, or the water, but only the actual equipment and the right to use it. Surely that doesn't imply that others have to keep away.

Tony S

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[simongoldthorpe]

Re: \"Private\" mooring

Bollocks - I have a swinging mooring in Swanage. Lots of folks like to anchor there at weekends which is fine, but many think it is really important to get as close as pos to the permanent moorings. For the last 4 years we have had to replace the mooring every season because some cretin has run over it and severed the mooring rope - all at our own expense.

This Saturday I went to Swanage to check the mooring and re-mark it . There was a 30+ Sunseeker anchored close enough to almost foul the mooring. As I pulled up to it he completely ignored me (perhaps I should have just moored and let the boat swing on to his - I hope it wasn't a forumite), watched me pull up the bouy and carried on drinking his G & T.

He should have a)moved b)asked if he should move or c)have the balls to ask if it was OK to stay where he was.

I hope his bilge pump runs dry.

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[Gludy]

Re: \"Private\" mooring

Just as a matter of interest - do you pay anyhting for the mooring or need permission to have it there?

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[rich]

Re: \"Private\" mooring

YES£££££££££and YES!!!!!

<hr width=100% size=1>http://www.jersey-harbours.com

 

[Gludy]

Re: \"Private\" mooring

Who do you pay - the harbour authority?

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul