Moody v Westerly

[doug748]

"Brilliant

But what useful points do you actually remember that you can tell us?
Or have you forgot?"

I've bought 3 new Westerly yachts, but I wouldn't now buy a used one, or indeed a used Moody. There are loads of newer AWBs around which are better value, nicer to sail, nicer to live with. So if I were you I'd move to an all-tide mooring and look at what sort of AWB you can get for similar money.

Congratulations, you get the Tranona memorial prize for the most unhelpful responses.

 

[pvb]

"Brilliant

But what useful points do you actually remember that you can tell us?
Or have you forgot?"






Congratulations, you get the Tranona memorial prize for the most unhelpful responses.

Seems you're not in a good mood this sunny Easter day! The OP said "Any experience of these marques (or advice regarding others to look at) will be welcome.". I gave advice regarding looking at more recent AWBs at the same sort of price. He's apparently prepared to pay £50K for a last century Westerly, that sort of money might buy something much newer and nicer.

 

[boatmike]

Well PVP, I am certainly in a good mood this Easter bunny monday and thank all the forumites for their responses. You are right I could buy a newer boat for that money but "nicer" is questionable. I could buy a Bavaria of course apart from the fact that I don't like saildrives but is it really as "nice"? The reason Westerlys and Moodys went under was basically that they built quality boats that have stood the test of time. Could not of course compete on price with AWBs production built in France and Germany but I wonder how many Bavarias will still be in good condition and as seaworthy as these old classics when they are 25-30 years old??

 

[pvb]

Well PVP, I am certainly in a good mood this Easter bunny monday and thank all the forumites for their responses. You are right I could buy a newer boat for that money but "nicer" is questionable. I could buy a Bavaria of course apart from the fact that I don't like saildrives but is it really as "nice"? The reason Westerlys and Moodys went under was basically that they built quality boats that have stood the test of time. Could not of course compete on price with AWBs production built in France and Germany but I wonder how many Bavarias will still be in good condition and as seaworthy as these old classics when they are 25-30 years old??

AWBs tend to be built on production lines to high standards, and have good potential longevity. There are lots of 30+ year old ones giving pleasure to owners. Saildrives do have advantages, including freedom from leaks, reduced vibration, etc, but if you don't like them there are lots of AWBs with shaft drive, like this 2006 Jeanneau for instance, which I'd bet you could buy for your £50K budget - https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2006/jeanneau-sun-odyssey-36i-performance-3526967/

 

[guardian]

Well PVP, I am certainly in a good mood this Easter bunny monday and thank all the forumites for their responses. You are right I could buy a newer boat for that money but "nicer" is questionable. I could buy a Bavaria of course apart from the fact that I don't like saildrives but is it really as "nice"? The reason Westerlys and Moodys went under was basically that they built quality boats that have stood the test of time. Could not of course compete on price with AWBs production built in France and Germany but I wonder how many Bavarias will still be in good condition and as seaworthy as these old classics when they are 25-30 years old??

That's not an unreasonable point to make, as someone who owns an older (Laurent Giles era) Westerly i can say that they are massively overbuilt which doesn't mean they are well-built, plus the fact these boats are getting on for 40 - 50 years of age. IMO it doesn't matter how well built something is unless its been regularly maintained all bets are off and would choose something newer rather than older if i had my time again as there's less damage/repairs, newer equipment/engine etc. I guess it comes down to individual boats you're looking at at the time.

I guess on the plus side the type of boat you're looking at (70's - 90's brit built boats) are becoming worthless with each passing year as tastes change so to that end your purchase makes sense. I know nothing of Moody's i only own a westerly and have worked on a few as a joiner. Things i would look at from experience would be get the floorboards up in the saloon and get into the bilges with a high-powered torch as that's where most of your problems will lie on a westerly. Poorly laid up laminate, cracks in the floors and reinforcements tell their own story. Look at where the bulkheads meet the actual bottom of the hull in the bilge, i've seen a few rotted out, a poke with a screwdriver will tell you everything.

Hull to keel joints & rudder bearings are another weak spot especially given the age of boat and the fact the Giles era boats had tufol rudder bearings which makes for a sloppy rudder and sod all feel at the helm. Westerly keels were piss poor quality iron so if the the boats out the water have a good eye with a scraper around the joint line. Windows or more specifically the frames can get expensive to repair or replace I've yet to see a Westerly from any era that doesn't show signs of damp and the corresponding lifting of the vinyl headliner around this area. And more generally engines, electrics - they all cost to repair or replace so maybe a refining of your search could be for a vessel with a recently replaced lump.

Happy hunting.

 

[pvb]

The reason Westerlys and Moodys went under was basically that they built quality boats that have stood the test of time.

That's not true for Westerly - they went bust primarily because they were dreadful businessmen. As for building "quality" boats, they might have been a bit better than a lot of the rubbish which was being churned out in the UK in the 70s and 80s, but they were quite shoddily built. Production control was virtually non-existent. Many Westerly yachts which still exist have needed extensive rectification work. As guardian said in post 25 "I now nothing of moody's i only own a westerly and have worked on a few as a joiner. Things i would look at from experience would be get the floorboards up in the saloon and get into the bilges with a high-powered torch as that's where most of your problems will lie on a westerly. Poorly laid up laminate, cracks in the floors and reinforcements tell their own story. Look at where the bulkheads meet the actual bottom of the hull in the bilge, i've seen a few rotted out, a poke with a screwdriver will tell you everything. Hull to keel joints & rudder bearings are another weak spot especially given the age of boat and the fact the Giles era boats had tufol rudder bearings which makes for a sloppy rudder and sod all feel at the helm. Westerly keels were piss poor quality iron so if the the boats out the water a good eye and a scraper around the joint line. Windows or more specifically the frames can get expensive to repair or replace I've yet to see a Westerly from any era that doesn't show signs of damp and the corresponding lifting of the vinyl headliner around this area."

 

[Concerto]

That's not true for Westerly - they went bust primarily because they were dreadful businessmen. As for building "quality" boats, they might have been a bit better than a lot of the rubbish which was being churned out in the UK in the 70s and 80s, but they were quite shoddily built. Production control was virtually non-existent. Many Westerly yachts which still exist have needed extensive rectification work.

Sorry pvb I cannot agree that Westerly were dreadful businessmen. In 1979 they had planned for the future and just bought the freehold of their factories with an overdraft from their existing bank. They had a full forward order book from continental dealers until they went to the Frankfurt Boat Show in 1980. The exchange rate had made their boats 25% more expensive that the French boats and they failed to sell a boat. This prompted all of the continental dealers to cancel their forward orders. This then prompted the bank to recall the overdraft, sending them into administration. Whilst in administation they cut staff and still built boats at a lower level, but remained profitable. This was why they continued building for another 20 years.

Over the next 20 years they continued with the existing policy on construction with hand building with bonded bulkheads and hand made furniture all aimed at the cruising market. This was compared to the continental yacht companies that had government grants to industrialise yacht building and aimed more at the charter market. The playing field was always stacked against Westerly. Today the majority of AWB boats come from one of 3 companies and the rest from a number of smaller companies.

My 1980 Fulmar has had little go wrong over its life. All the electrics are original and still work. The woodwork is in good condition. There is no osmosis on the hull and it was only Gel Shielded 5 years ago. I still doubt if a great number of the modern AWB's will still be around in 50 years. You have claimed modern layups are stronger and better. Yet the hybrid construction of the hull is a probably going to cause new problems on a large scale. The sub-frame becoming detatched is going to be the death of many yachts. Opposite my berth is a sailing school with 3 modern AWBs. The latest one is so flexible that it is squeaky in any rough water and has such thin gel coat that a minor scratch is expensive to repair properly. Yes, a modern AWB may have been built to finer tolerances and have a cabin design suited to be a floating caravan on charter. They are not such good sea boats and now rarely have a sea berth below.

We shall beg to differ, but your comments are as general as mine. The OP should make up his own mind whether he wants a Westerly/Moody or a AWB.

 

[pvb]

Sorry pvb I cannot agree that Westerly were dreadful businessmen. In 1979 they had planned for the future and just bought the freehold of their factories with an overdraft from their existing bank. They had a full forward order book from continental dealers until they went to the Frankfurt Boat Show in 1980. The exchange rate had made their boats 25% more expensive that the French boats and they failed to sell a boat. This prompted all of the continental dealers to cancel their forward orders. This then prompted the bank to recall the overdraft, sending them into administration. Whilst in administation they cut staff and still built boats at a lower level, but remained profitable. This was why they continued building for another 20 years.

Over the next 20 years they continued with the existing policy on construction with hand building with bonded bulkheads and hand made furniture all aimed at the cruising market. This was compared to the continental yacht companies that had government grants to industrialise yacht building and aimed more at the charter market. The playing field was always stacked against Westerly. Today the majority of AWB boats come from one of 3 companies and the rest from a number of smaller companies.

My 1980 Fulmar has had little go wrong over its life. All the electrics are original and still work. The woodwork is in good condition. There is no osmosis on the hull and it was only Gel Shielded 5 years ago. I still doubt if a great number of the modern AWB's will still be around in 50 years. You have claimed modern layups are stronger and better. Yet the hybrid construction of the hull is a probably going to cause new problems on a large scale. The sub-frame becoming detatched is going to be the death of many yachts. Opposite my berth is a sailing school with 3 modern AWBs. The latest one is so flexible that it is squeaky in any rough water and has such thin gel coat that a minor scratch is expensive to repair properly. Yes, a modern AWB may have been built to finer tolerances and have a cabin design suited to be a floating caravan on charter. They are not such good sea boats and now rarely have a sea berth below.

We shall beg to differ, but your comments are as general as mine. The OP should make up his own mind whether he wants a Westerly/Moody or a AWB.

We shall indeed beg to differ. The directors' decision to buy factories was extremely ill-advised. Their boats were more expensive because they couldn't produce them efficiently enough. I bought 3 new Westerly yachts, and visited the factory to see the first 2 in production. It was thinly-disguised chaos! There was a huge amount of wasted labour time because simple things like jigs weren't being used, it was very much trial-and-error stuff. The warranty work I had done on my first 2 Westerly yachts would probably have wiped out any profit they might have made on them. They only did "hand made furniture" because they were too cheap to invest in furniture making machines. But, I have to say that Westerly played a major role in expanding the participation in sailing in the UK in the 70s and 80s, and their success in that can't be underestimated.

Modern AWBs do tend to be more scientifically built, according to good engineering practice, with carefully designed glass reinforcement and ideal environmental conditions for working with GRP. Contrast that with the draughty sheds of yesteryear, with little men with buckets of resin. Some AWBs use spray-applied gelcoat, which avoids the tiny trapped air bubbles in brushed gelcoat which transform into osmosis later. The grid structure to distribute loads works well, and shouldn't become detached unless there's serious grounding damage. Remember that many Westerly yachts have had to have their bilge keel supports reinforced to stabilise the keels!

As for "sea berths", it's easy to add a lee cloth to any AWB to create a cosy sea berth. I don't think many Westerly yachts came equipped with lee cloths, although I seem to remember my Corsair had one.

 

[jwilson]

When French GRP boats started to appear in quantity I thought ".....flimsy French bathtubs". I was wrong, and now own one. I was aboard a big Beneteau in the 1990s (on deck screaming TACK at the person helming) that tried to bear way and as a result T-boned another yacht at speed. Surprisingly little damage to the Beneteau. A lot (write-off) and near-sinking for the other.

Most AWBs are excellent for what most people actually want to do. I would not choose my present Jeanneau for serious long-distance work, but as a coastal cruiser it is fast, comfortable in harbour and in general pretty well built. My only niggles really are to do with the (very efficient) build process where all the plumbing, electrics etc. are installed before the deck is put on and internal modules bonded in: this makes some occasional servicing awkward, but to date never impossible.

My Jeanneau is definitely a modern AWB, but just predates the company using Beneteau-style eggbox internal mouldings. I am not a great fan of this construction method, but in normal use it works well, and gives nice easy to clean internal bilges. The main builders have worked hard at combining adequate structural engineering with production efficiency.

Almost every type of yacht has it's advantages and disadvantages. I've gone from owning a heavy long-keeled leadmine to a modern light AWB and for what I want it's the right choice. The old boat might have been better in a North Atlantic winter gale, but the newer one is almost always faster and more comfortable. The only exception is dead to windward in a near gale. It will get there, and fairly fast too, but the motion is teeth-rattlingly awful. Only done it once - the perils of sailing to a deadline.

 

[doug748]

............. visited the factory to see the first 2 in production. It was thinly-disguised chaos!
There was a huge amount of wasted labour time because simple things like jigs weren't being used.... it was very much trial-and-error stuff... they were too cheap to invest in furniture making machines.

Modern AWBs do tend to be more scientifically built, according to good engineering practice,. ......the draughty sheds of yesteryear, with little men with buckets of resin. Some AWBs use spray-applied...
...

This could be the usual trolling, it has the hallmarks.
Or it could be complete ignorance of productive industry. We may never know.

I think Westerly owners are wise to keep their own counsel.

 

[Graham376]

Well PVP, I am certainly in a good mood this Easter bunny monday and thank all the forumites for their responses. You are right I could buy a newer boat for that money but "nicer" is questionable. I could buy a Bavaria of course apart from the fact that I don't like saildrives but is it really as "nice"? The reason Westerlys and Moodys went under was basically that they built quality boats that have stood the test of time. Could not of course compete on price with AWBs production built in France and Germany but I wonder how many Bavarias will still be in good condition and as seaworthy as these old classics when they are 25-30 years old??

I've has 2 x Westery and 2 x Moody boats and agree with most of what you say, I wouldn't change my Moody for one of the newer mass produced makes or, for an old Westerly. I've found Moody better build quality than Westerly and with fewer droopy headlinings. Others disagree of course but I prefer the looks of many older boats and dislike saildrives and spade rudders. Unlike Westerly, Moody didn't go bust, they tried cutting costs to compete with Bav, Ben etc but didn't like the necessary drop in quality of their last few smaller models and stopped production of those, cutting ties with Marine Projects who built the hulls. They continued with the bigger boats 47 ft + built by Halmatic and then sold out the name and production rights to Hanse.

 

[guardian]

This could be the usual trolling, it has the hallmarks.
Or it could be complete ignorance of productive industry. We may never know.

I think Westerly owners are wise to keep their own counsel.

Why? The guys asking for genuine feedback.

 

[Daydream believer]

because they were too cheap to invest in furniture making machines. .

Be fair- Polish & Rumanian joiners were fairly rare then

 

[Daydream believer]

I prefer the looks of many older boats and dislike saildrives and spade rudders. .

We all have different opinions. (understandably).The shaft drive on my recently acquired launch is noisy, the stern gland leaks (& it appears always has from new , inspite of change) the shaft shakes about. My saildrive on my Hanse is infinitely better & does not leak & the drive is quiet. Far superior & only needs real attention every 7 years, taking 8-10 hours. Apart from regular oil changes etc. of course.
Give me saildrive every time.

Re lookseople have often commented how nice my 2003 Hanse 311 actually looks. Granted the later models are not to my liking, but someone likes them because they are selling well. I think Westerlys look really dated & lacking in character. They really say "GRP lump".
The interior of my Hanse beats the inside of any similar sized Westerly by miles.There is nowhere in a similar length Westerly that I can say the Westerly is better in accommodation. ( admittedly i have only been in a few so I may be pushing my point too far here) However, as with many older boats, I really wonder why people want to buy boats with such out dated interior designs.

It performs infinitely better than any Westerly (that I have come up against) & I have no qualms about the rudder; although I admit that it has been changed, due to faulty construction (but that can happen with any part, of any boat- ask Oyster!!) My fin & spade is not direction-ally stable, as was my last long keeled boat- which was a joy to sail- but the performance is so good I will forgo that any day

As for good management, I spoke to a Westerly owner who bought a Westerly that had the aft section completely wrong against the order. Westerly stripped it out & rebuilt it, whilst it was at his marina (not returned to factory) & he reckons it probably cost 15-20% of the original boat cost. All due to poor management.
I would also add that I expect my yacht to last for quite a few years yet.

But in the end it is to each his own & if some one likes his/her boat & it fits the bill, then great. There is nothing wrong with that & we are all entitled to an opinion, even though it does not agree with ours:ambivalence:

 

[Graham376]

Re lookseople have often commented how nice my 2003 Hanse 311 actually looks. Granted the later models are not to my liking, but someone likes them because they are selling well. I think Westerlys look really dated & lacking in character. They really say "GRP lump".

The interior of my Hanse beats the inside of any similar sized Westerly by miles.There is nowhere in a similar length Westerly that I can say the Westerly is better in accommodation. ( admittedly i have only been in a few so I may be pushing my point too far here) However, as with many older boats, I really wonder why people want to buy boats with such out dated interior designs. But in the end it is to each his own & if some one likes his/her boat & it fits the bill, then great. There is nothing wrong with that & we are all entitled to an opinion, even though it does not agree with ours:ambivalence:

As you say, each to his own. Outdated grp lump could be applied to many boats, even HR, Najad etc. if one prefers ultra modern twin wheel wide sterns and shallow draught. Problem with many new designs for me is that there isn't a sea berth, just horseshoe seating around the table. I also have a dislike of linear galleys, much prefer more traditional and of course a chart table, which seems to have been missed out of some more modern boats. Looking around at long distance liveaboard boats (those actually doing it) there are far more older designs than new, with quite a high proportion being steel. I could go out and buy a new Bav, Ben, Jan tomorrow if I wished but quite happy with what I have.

 

[doug748]

"I think Westerly owners are wise to keep their own counsel."
......

Why? The guys asking for genuine feedback.



My misleading text there. The meaning I intended was:- Westerly owners are wise not to react to any jibes.

On the original issue, I always rather liked the Moody boats of that era but that may be because I have been aboard more of them. The less niggles you have the better when an old gent (which many of us are) and things like the headlinings, trivial in themselves, can be an inordinate amount of bother.

 

[guardian]

"I think Westerly owners are wise to keep their own counsel."
......

Why? The guys asking for genuine feedback.



My misleading text there. The meaning I intended was:- Westerly owners are wise not to react to any jibes.

On the original issue, I always rather liked the Moody boats of that era but that may be because I have been aboard more of them. The less niggles you have the better when an old gent (which many of us are) and things like the headlinings, trivial in themselves, can be an inordinate amount of bother.

Oh i see, yes Westerly Yachts is something of a sacred cow, i've learnt to my cost here when voicing criticism of the marque (and i'm an owner) . FWIW i think the equivalent 80's /90's centre cockpit Moody's were better looking and from what i see online they've certainly wear alot better too, they don't seem to look as dated either, just my opinion.

I

 

[lampshuk]

My Dad owned a Westerly Berwick from about 1974. I now own Moody 31 Mk II from 1989.
Neither is your target boat, and the newer Westerlys have much more modern interiors than the older ones, but from my admittedly only marginally relevant experience I think you could be very happy with either, and for your budget you should be able to find nice ones.

So on balance I think it will come down to which specific examples you find at the right price/condition/time.

Perhaps ironically, my Dad always fancied a Snowgoose and I think he would have liked to get one (instead of the Berwick) as his "retirement boat" but my Mum put her foot down on any further sailing activities.

Is it just the pontoon mooring causing you to consider switching to monohull now? I have sailed a catamaran only twice but was impressed with the ease of access and handling.

 

[boatmike]

I think you missed the point regarding my original spec. 2.1 metre (6.8Ft) is hardly shoal draught for a mud mooring????????
PS Sorry that was in response to the post that suggested I buy a specific AWB built in France.

 

[laika]

Owning a larger westerly than the OP is looking at and having sailed only that smaller ones than are under consideration here I can't comment on the seahawk family that is presumably what the OP is thinking of on the westerly side but can offer a link to a description that part of the range:
https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/index.php?title=The_Seahawks_and_their_sisters
Perhaps with a mail to the local westerly/moody owners groups you might get put in contact with owners of the models you're looking at at least for a chat and maybe a day's crewing? Westerly south coast contacts here:
https://westerly-owners.co.uk/south-coast-group/

The OP can make up his/her own mind about the aesthetics but imho it's remarkable how much better a westerly looks once you remove the red stripe down the side (ie the actual vinyl stripe rather than misc caribbean beer stains...)