[2068]
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SWMBO = She who must be obeyed (wife / lady friend)
Modern Engine life expectancy
- Thread starter DAKA
- Start date
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Crust,
#1 From the above description your application would appear to be revenue generating, not trying to let Volvo off the hook but on that basis you would only qualify for one year warranty.
#2 Way the wiring looks is not the issue, as said many times not real close to nuts and bolts of Volvo but the electronc faults you describe sound suspiciously installation related.
#3 Volvo took a holding in Deutz back in late 90's as their own engineering recources were real streched developing new engine platforms. On visits to Deutz plenty of evidence of D4/6 development in the cells.
#4 Is your vessel capable of making 3,560 rpm clean at WOT? I have no idea if Volvo gauges give you % engine load, if they do I would not expect to see much over 90% at WOT. Unless this condition is met your engine loading even at just 2,800 will be all to heck.
Being applicable to this discussion and the point I am trying to make: Take any modern (mid 90's and newer) 4-12 L diesel rated at 60-80 HP per litre (80+% of all the engines we talk about here are in this class), and you obviously want to do it right.
Be sure that you are happy with your vessel's performance set up the way you will actually be using it (that means loaded with all you need to meet your application goals) burning no more than 1.8 GPH per litre displacement at your happy cruise speed operating at a 30-50% duty cycle or less if you want a chance of seeing 5000 hours.
If you need to burn closer to 2.1-2.26 GPH gallons per litre displacement to get you up to the speed you need to go, you must accept a much lesser engine life (IMO, in actuality you may be borderline underpowered), and you may not see 2500 hours before your engine is history. I'll bet the sales broker never talked along those lines - seems the only thing they know about diesels is something like 10,000 hours when the subject engine life comes up. If during these 2000-5000 hours you are propped to where you cannot reach rated speed or more, then the numbers will be even worse.
Keep in mind that if you run at 2+ GPH per litre or more, a simple problem (lose a coolant pump belt or impeller) that occurs running on the "edge" becomes a major issue compared to running that same engine at 1 GPH per litre. When you only have a three quarter tonne engine/trans package cruising at 2 GPH or more per litre, you have no time and no room for even the simplest overheat issue that might be caused from losing an impeller, engine coolant pump or hose.
Regardless of how HP has gone up per litre over the years and the quality of the base product has gone up with it (it really has), you'll find that these numbers are where you need to be if you want 10-15 yrs of engine life running 200-500 hrs/yr in recreational service in the typical planing boat that is sold for its "performance" qualities on plane. But take that same boat, get realistic about how fast you DON'T need to go, bring it down to hull type speeds and run those same engines at 10-20 HP per litre when travelling for hours, care for all as if these engines were your passion, and 10,000 hours and 20+ years of great service is very do-able
Your failure is most interesting in that all the talk regarding the injector sleeve collapse related to fuel, I would be taking a serious look at engine loading as a factor.
As there have been no recent reports the Volvo party line that the issue is fixed has to be accepted. It does concern me that no service topic has ever been issued, just hate all secret squirrel stuff!
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dieselboy
Member
copper washers...old technology that needs careful control. Obviously Volvo dont understand the controls you need on them. If you look at 'older' engines compared to modern motors, you will see that copper washers were common on fuel connections. New stuff has Dowty type rubber seals, because the old washers were prone to leakage during assembly.
Why? This is because the sealing ability of copper varies due to its hardness value. The washer needs to be annealed to a certain controlled value before fitting, and 'work hardens' when torqued down. Effectively they deform to seal, and stay deformed... Anyone with old boats who has tried to reuse them, and then found a leak, will know they usually have to replace these washers.
So.. you have a combination of clamp load and deformation required in the form of 'softness of material', versus pressure generated in the cylinder, fuel line etc. I wonder how many engines blew that had reused washers....
Volvo now owe me several million quid for solving their problem, and the old boat owners owe me for telling them about the seals, which can be re-used... that's a quid each gents!
To the original post, if you look after engines and run them regularly, they can be like 'triggers brush', same engine for 30 years, just needs new parts every so often due to wear and tear. I recently had a guy come in with 1 million miles on his truck engine... ok it had been rebored three times, and had the crank ground to fix bearings etc... engine is still going as he has decided to see exactly how long it will last...
However. In order to meet emissions standards, you have to put less oil in the bores, need weird exhaust systems, and mega electronic controls for it all... The base parts have not changed, so the blocks etc are fine, its these new 'hang on' bits that I see reducing engine life. It is now like your car, you need a computer geek to fix it, not a mechanic. Gone are the days where you see the lads out on Sunday morning having a tinker under the bonnet... marine motors have now gone the same way thanks to legislation and technology advances. Blame the governments, not the engineers!!!
Why? This is because the sealing ability of copper varies due to its hardness value. The washer needs to be annealed to a certain controlled value before fitting, and 'work hardens' when torqued down. Effectively they deform to seal, and stay deformed... Anyone with old boats who has tried to reuse them, and then found a leak, will know they usually have to replace these washers.
So.. you have a combination of clamp load and deformation required in the form of 'softness of material', versus pressure generated in the cylinder, fuel line etc. I wonder how many engines blew that had reused washers....
Volvo now owe me several million quid for solving their problem, and the old boat owners owe me for telling them about the seals, which can be re-used... that's a quid each gents!
To the original post, if you look after engines and run them regularly, they can be like 'triggers brush', same engine for 30 years, just needs new parts every so often due to wear and tear. I recently had a guy come in with 1 million miles on his truck engine... ok it had been rebored three times, and had the crank ground to fix bearings etc... engine is still going as he has decided to see exactly how long it will last...
However. In order to meet emissions standards, you have to put less oil in the bores, need weird exhaust systems, and mega electronic controls for it all... The base parts have not changed, so the blocks etc are fine, its these new 'hang on' bits that I see reducing engine life. It is now like your car, you need a computer geek to fix it, not a mechanic. Gone are the days where you see the lads out on Sunday morning having a tinker under the bonnet... marine motors have now gone the same way thanks to legislation and technology advances. Blame the governments, not the engineers!!!
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ulyden
Well-Known Member
Well there is a concern about lifetime of the control systems. A big German marine engine boulder is developing electronic controls that are possible to replace by newer electronics. Problem is short production life on electronic circuits. This engine boulder was aware that engine might live twice as long as the electronics. This might be a problem on pleasure engine.
Using copper to seal the combustion pressure is dangerous. Volvo/deutz is using cupper to seal the fuel valve. Problem is this creeping and softening / hardening properties on copper. You can for example not reheat the cupper after replacing nozzles on this engine.
I have measured the strain in the fastening bolts for some fuel valves. It’s more or less the mirrored combustion pressure!
I’m working with a bit bigger engines and with a older layout. But this cupper is replaced by stronger materials years ago. But we forgot to replace the cupper gasket below the starting air valve. During a 100h 110% test it lost its sealing and the cylinder pressure pressurised a larger area. The marks the starting valve did on the wall 20m away were scaring!
Latestarter: Why this low ratings? 20 years ago I was working with fast ferries. At that time you could buy engines with 35-40hp/liter continues output and expect 10-15000 TBO. These engines were widely used in pleasure boats as vel. (MTU 12V 183 94) Since then we have better hone patteren, beter materials, stronger pistons, better piston rings,better oils, better bearings, better calculations and so on.
Using copper to seal the combustion pressure is dangerous. Volvo/deutz is using cupper to seal the fuel valve. Problem is this creeping and softening / hardening properties on copper. You can for example not reheat the cupper after replacing nozzles on this engine.
I have measured the strain in the fastening bolts for some fuel valves. It’s more or less the mirrored combustion pressure!
I’m working with a bit bigger engines and with a older layout. But this cupper is replaced by stronger materials years ago. But we forgot to replace the cupper gasket below the starting air valve. During a 100h 110% test it lost its sealing and the cylinder pressure pressurised a larger area. The marks the starting valve did on the wall 20m away were scaring!
Latestarter: Why this low ratings? 20 years ago I was working with fast ferries. At that time you could buy engines with 35-40hp/liter continues output and expect 10-15000 TBO. These engines were widely used in pleasure boats as vel. (MTU 12V 183 94) Since then we have better hone patteren, beter materials, stronger pistons, better piston rings,better oils, better bearings, better calculations and so on.
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crust
Member
many thanks indeed for all input from several people, will be talking to volvo rep, about a few things in light of comments about copper sleeves.
volvopaul
Well-Known Member
Just read all the latest posts on this thread, to be honest it sounds like you have the right boat for your needs BUT the wrong duty cycle engines, the d6 is a great motor but not for the application you are using it for.
T give you an example, the D12s are failing on the pistons in marine pleasure ratings at under 300 hours, however the 480hp derated D12s in Southamptons pilots are doing thousands of hours with little trouble that relate the major premature failure.
In laymans terms its " horses for corses" get it right first time.
Marsupial
Well-Known Member
ah the D12 is that another 100% pure marine unit? I think not its a truck engine
http://www.volvo.com/NR/rdonlyres/AAF8FB62-2730-4129-8A61-611E4151EE69/0/D12D435_VN.pdf
but that does not excuse it from failing at 300hrs - terrible! regardless of what it was installed in.
I hope volvo are picking up the bill!!!
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Volvo currently produce only one engine platform unique to marine applications, D4/6, the rest are automotive/industrial/construction/G drive/marine units with volume sales pretty much in that order. Most automotive volumes are transitioning to he newer D13 platform with rear gear drive.
D12 has been one of the largest selling automotive engines world wide with excellent durability record. Never noted as hitting the #1 spot in terms of fuel economy, but good engine. Camshaft spalling has always been on-going issue in G drive units, suspected due to hertz stress.
I would suggest that Volvopaul was making the point that mis-apply the stongest engine ANY brand and you will find that is lasts as long as a disposable cigarette lighter. Volvo spec sheets and warranty startement are at best vague when it comes to duty cycle definitions CAT and Cummins provide far more detailed rating guidelines and are keen to police them.
Several years ago saw some quotes for commercial vessels, cannot remember the exact power rating, however Cat was quoting C18, Cummins was quoting QSK19, Volvo dealer was offering D12 at almost half the price, when you looked at the application and rating duty cycle it was marginal for C18 and a killer for the D12 rating being offered, however the bean counters had the final say. All ended in tears.
Just to add that having a brief look at EVC stuff I cannot find % engine load, fuel rate, yes, which will tell you kind of the same story with some extra work on the back of a fag packet.
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ccscott49
Well-Known Member
Well. My Ford dovers 6 cyl. (mermaids) 135hp, natural aspiration, 1993, have done 2500 hours each, no smoke on start up or any other time, get serviced regular, looked after, given cuddles when neccessary and have not let me down, only parts used in 2000 hours are filters (plus separ filters) and a couple of rocker box gaskets and impellors on each engine. Even the belts!!!! are the originals, nothing wrong with them, cant believe it. I do carry spares. They start first touch everytime also. I service them myself, then I know its done right. Hope they last another 3-4000 hours before major work is needed. Because I will probaly be dead!
DAKA
Well-Known Member
This is exactly what my post was about.........
Commercial version of the D12 lasts for ever.
Pleasure boat version is designed to last for 300 hours @ average 30-100 hours a year thats as soon as the warranty expires.
The engine builders seem to be designing an engine to last the length of the warranty with a small safety margin for themselves.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Sorry DAKA not what I am saying at all...........
A miss applied motor be it a commercial or leasure rating can be killed at low hours.
Engines produced today are of far higher quality, machining tolerance as well as process control than those of just ten years ago. As to a leasure rated D12 scuffing a piston at 300 hrs, I would love to look at the installation mmmm every D12 I know has steel articulated pistons. You can juce engines with steel pistons out of their brains and they will never scuff the bores. I would be all over the installation like a rash if I had the chance.
Every major engine manufacturer is acutely aware of company shareholder value and engineers are a naturally cautious bunch. Engine sign off proceedure requres the signature of a bunch of people, NOT one of them is ever prepared to put their career on the line!
Pleased that the poster with the Ford Dover 6.2's is so happy we thought Dover NA engine was a pile of poo. Piston oil control was always a nightmare, so much so that we had to produce the first engines out of a hybrid mix of Dover and Dorset parts. The dry liner set up on the 6 litre turbo unit was a nausiea in production, soon realised that it was time to move on despite Ford having excellent quality systems it was engineering in a straight jacket. Good to hear that our old stuff is held in so much affection, not shared with people who designed it!
ChrisB177
New Member
Engine Life.
Two and a half yrs ago bought a new boat with a VP D4 260 hp installed. Spent a lot of money and expected a package that would last a long time. Touch wood no engine problems so far, but now getting a bit worried reading all this stuff. My local mechanic says a lot of it is scaremongering. Anybody agree?
Two and a half yrs ago bought a new boat with a VP D4 260 hp installed. Spent a lot of money and expected a package that would last a long time. Touch wood no engine problems so far, but now getting a bit worried reading all this stuff. My local mechanic says a lot of it is scaremongering. Anybody agree?
bluejasper2
Well-Known Member
hi i have d4 also have had no problems in three years i think that if you look
after it correctly and actually use it . diesel engines like to work and work
hard, in my opinion you will get more problems through lack of use than if used a lot. if you look at lots of boats for sale three or four years old and above
with only 50 to 100 hours on clock. do some people not like to use the boats
they have spent a fortune to buy. .
after it correctly and actually use it . diesel engines like to work and work
hard, in my opinion you will get more problems through lack of use than if used a lot. if you look at lots of boats for sale three or four years old and above
with only 50 to 100 hours on clock. do some people not like to use the boats
they have spent a fortune to buy. .
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Thought I was a lone voice here. Did you read my earlier posting?
Rule is oh so simple "Be sure that you are happy with your vessel's performance set up the way you will actually be using it (that means loaded with all you need to meet your application goals) burning no more than 1.8 GPH per litre displacement at your happy cruise speed operating at a 30-50% duty cycle or less"
If you meet the above criteria and making 3500 rpm plus governor droop clean, life will be good for the next 20 years. Just feed your motor nice clean fuel worry about marine age of heat exchangers by having them apart every three years, regularly service raw water pump and you will have zero problems.
Many prophets of doom do not own a modern engine.
Rest easy.