bedouin
Well-Known Member
Do you never make mistakes?
I can remember a couple of occasions when I have been surprised to find that I was not clipped on when I thought I was.
MOB - best sequence of steps with one person left aboard
- Thread starter Poey50
- Start date
I can remember a couple of occasions when I have been surprised to find that I was not clipped on when I thought I was.
RupertW
Well-Known Member
Of course, you are right. I was just trying to say that we wear lifejackets only when we want to be clipped on at the time. Before combo lifejacket/harnesses we always wore harnesses in those conditions but the lifejackets remained in lockers for years without seeing the light of day.
[163233]
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Two barrels is usually enough to keep them up...
alant
Well-Known Member
What, are "those conditions"?
The rule should be 'always, when at sea when on deck (outside companionway)', "conditions" can change without warning.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
I'm not convinced that conditions can always change without warning ... in fact I don't think I've ever know conditions to change without warning. However, I follow your rule because I think it should be natural to clip on when coming on deck ... that way it's less likely to be forgotten when things aren't going smoothly.
RupertW
Well-Known Member
No way - my boat is principally a platform for drinking, eating, reading and watching the world go by as we sail along. If we clipped on in daylight in the cockpit in light or even low moderate wind conditions we wouldn't be having fun or getting an even tan we'd be pretending we were doing a risky sport, which sailing isn't.
alant
Well-Known Member
I well remember a British being thrown out of his cockpit & crushed against the harbour wall, whilst enjoying his G&T.
The violent wash for a passing ferry catapulted him overboard.
He was having fun as well.
RupertW
Well-Known Member
And that's the way I'd like to go too.
It's fun this sailing thing with a few basic precautions. The British have a weird way of turning Summer sails into mini Cape Horn adventures compared to the partying style of French and Italian and Ozzie sailors who just enjoy.
Of course you look out for squalls and waterspouts and ferry washes but clothes and harnesses aren't needed to warn others or hang on. At night when you can't see weather and waves is different and I'd never stop an inexperienced person wearing a harness on a calm day if they wanted to.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Just as those people were who got washed off the Cobb in Lyme Regis a couple of years back, which is why I insist that my crew wear lifejackets and survival suits when walking across the pier to the Rothesay ferry.
alant
Well-Known Member
Simondjuk
Well-Known Member
We sail a 40 foot boat with corresponding freeboard mostly double handed. Me, 6' and just under 13 stone, my wife, 5' 2" and under 8 stone. If I can't help myself, there's no way she's getting me back on board and I'd not rate my chances highly with her, although if I could get a hold of her with one hand and something solid with the other, fuelled by adrenaline, I might just manage to drag her on board in an injuriously crude fashion.
As Rupert says above though, it's our boat, our rules and, when sailing our own boat, we sail for fun, and a lifejacket isn't always necessary.
After many thousands of miles sailed together and many more separately, we both make our own independent decisions about when to put a lifejacket on and when to clip on. What's interesting about this, and why it remains our habit, is that very early on and without any prior discussion, it became apparent that our decisions on both matters almost entirely coincided. When eventually we thought to discuss and quantify our tolerance points, we found that the basic thinking we had privately held matched exactly. If we wouldn't wilfully jump in to go for a swim, we put our lifejackets on. If we felt that there was a risk that a fall or stumble of any kind might lead to falling overboard and the sea state, weather conditions, boat speed and sail plan meant that there was any risk that the boat might not be brought safely to a stop whilst still within a distance that allowed full and constant visual contact with the casualty, we clipped on. That basically translates to a greater tolerance to being unclipped in the cockpit than when going forward and being clipped on in the cockpit with any size of sea running, above about F6/reef 2 even in flattish water, always at night and with a reduced tolerance to being unclipped when alone on deck, decreasing as the alone period lengthens.
So, on one hand, ghosting along at 2 knots under the kite in a few knots of breeze in flat, warm water, I'll go to the foredeck to launch and recover the kite without even a lifejacket on. If I somehow manage to throw myself off the boat, she can ditch the kite and come back for me as she'll not lose sight of me for some distance, and I say that as someone who has demonstrated the difficulty of picking out an inactive MOB by throwing coconuts into the water (I couldn't see how it could be a breach of MARPOL if you got them from out of the water where they ended up naturally in the first place). I'll float around on my back, maybe shouting out "I'm fine, don't rush and rip the kite!" while I wait, then climb the swim ladder whilst commenting on how lovely the water is.
On the other hand, even if the sun is beating down, there's not a breath and we're motoring across glass under autopilot, when one of us is going below to get a few hours sleep, the other will put their lifejacket on and clip on inside the cockpit which makes becoming even a tethered MOB impossible. Ending up in the water watching the boat merrily motor away from you on a glorious flat calm day while knowing the other is sleeping dreamily on below is simply too ironic to risk allowing.
Everything else falls somewhere between these examples based on common sense.
And it is just common sense, as common sense tells me that when she comes back on deck in the last example, I can unclip and take my lifejacket off beacause with her there, even if I do somehow eject myself out of the cockpit and overboard, my recovery will involve about 30 seconds of astern propulsion being applied. Heck, so as not to fill my shorts and t-shirt with spiky bits and to make a shower to wash off that stuck to me and the boat possible immediately afterwards, I've stood on the sugar scoop butt naked whilst cutting my own hair whilst about 100 miles offshore on such a day. In the event, the transom shower turned out to lack the oomph to unstick the clippings from my back, so I called for the boat to be stopped, kicked the swim ladder down and dived in to rinse off.
I think that I can say with some certainty that a lifejacket wasn't a must on that day even when I was on the sugar scoop, let alone when we were both in the cockpit, so to say that the rule should be that lifejackets should be worn 'always when on deck' is to over-simplify it to the point of denying common sense.
More recently, personal AIS beacons with DSC and a loud DSC alarm to rouse the sleeper on the boat one's just fallen off have negated the need to clip on at those alone on deck times in benign conditions, which is nice. The one oddity for me is that my tolerance to being unclipped actually increases when solo in benign conditions, but is perhaps explained by the need to be more freed to work the whole boat alone, the reduced immediacy of responsibility toward anyone else, and perhaps simply the reduction in the potential for the irony of there being someone present who could come back for me if only they weren't sleeping so peacefully playing itself out.
As Rupert says above though, it's our boat, our rules and, when sailing our own boat, we sail for fun, and a lifejacket isn't always necessary.
After many thousands of miles sailed together and many more separately, we both make our own independent decisions about when to put a lifejacket on and when to clip on. What's interesting about this, and why it remains our habit, is that very early on and without any prior discussion, it became apparent that our decisions on both matters almost entirely coincided. When eventually we thought to discuss and quantify our tolerance points, we found that the basic thinking we had privately held matched exactly. If we wouldn't wilfully jump in to go for a swim, we put our lifejackets on. If we felt that there was a risk that a fall or stumble of any kind might lead to falling overboard and the sea state, weather conditions, boat speed and sail plan meant that there was any risk that the boat might not be brought safely to a stop whilst still within a distance that allowed full and constant visual contact with the casualty, we clipped on. That basically translates to a greater tolerance to being unclipped in the cockpit than when going forward and being clipped on in the cockpit with any size of sea running, above about F6/reef 2 even in flattish water, always at night and with a reduced tolerance to being unclipped when alone on deck, decreasing as the alone period lengthens.
So, on one hand, ghosting along at 2 knots under the kite in a few knots of breeze in flat, warm water, I'll go to the foredeck to launch and recover the kite without even a lifejacket on. If I somehow manage to throw myself off the boat, she can ditch the kite and come back for me as she'll not lose sight of me for some distance, and I say that as someone who has demonstrated the difficulty of picking out an inactive MOB by throwing coconuts into the water (I couldn't see how it could be a breach of MARPOL if you got them from out of the water where they ended up naturally in the first place). I'll float around on my back, maybe shouting out "I'm fine, don't rush and rip the kite!" while I wait, then climb the swim ladder whilst commenting on how lovely the water is.
On the other hand, even if the sun is beating down, there's not a breath and we're motoring across glass under autopilot, when one of us is going below to get a few hours sleep, the other will put their lifejacket on and clip on inside the cockpit which makes becoming even a tethered MOB impossible. Ending up in the water watching the boat merrily motor away from you on a glorious flat calm day while knowing the other is sleeping dreamily on below is simply too ironic to risk allowing.
Everything else falls somewhere between these examples based on common sense.
And it is just common sense, as common sense tells me that when she comes back on deck in the last example, I can unclip and take my lifejacket off beacause with her there, even if I do somehow eject myself out of the cockpit and overboard, my recovery will involve about 30 seconds of astern propulsion being applied. Heck, so as not to fill my shorts and t-shirt with spiky bits and to make a shower to wash off that stuck to me and the boat possible immediately afterwards, I've stood on the sugar scoop butt naked whilst cutting my own hair whilst about 100 miles offshore on such a day. In the event, the transom shower turned out to lack the oomph to unstick the clippings from my back, so I called for the boat to be stopped, kicked the swim ladder down and dived in to rinse off.
I think that I can say with some certainty that a lifejacket wasn't a must on that day even when I was on the sugar scoop, let alone when we were both in the cockpit, so to say that the rule should be that lifejackets should be worn 'always when on deck' is to over-simplify it to the point of denying common sense.
More recently, personal AIS beacons with DSC and a loud DSC alarm to rouse the sleeper on the boat one's just fallen off have negated the need to clip on at those alone on deck times in benign conditions, which is nice. The one oddity for me is that my tolerance to being unclipped actually increases when solo in benign conditions, but is perhaps explained by the need to be more freed to work the whole boat alone, the reduced immediacy of responsibility toward anyone else, and perhaps simply the reduction in the potential for the irony of there being someone present who could come back for me if only they weren't sleeping so peacefully playing itself out.
[70521]
Well-Known Member
What were the wind and sea state at the time?
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>That basically translates to a greater tolerance to being unclipped in the cockpit than when going forward and being clipped on in the cockpit with any size of sea running, above about F6/reef 2 even in flattish water, always at night and with a reduced tolerance to being unclipped when alone on deck, decreasing as the alone period lengthens.
At last somebody else who clips on. When I suggested it better stop a MOB by clipping on there was no response just posts about what they would if if they had a MoB. The tactics mentioned would work in light and medium winds but not anything stronger. Also there can be unforecasted bad weather such as we had a gale gusting 50 knots over Biscay. We always kept the barometer reading in the log so we saw it coming and reefed early.
At last somebody else who clips on. When I suggested it better stop a MOB by clipping on there was no response just posts about what they would if if they had a MoB. The tactics mentioned would work in light and medium winds but not anything stronger. Also there can be unforecasted bad weather such as we had a gale gusting 50 knots over Biscay. We always kept the barometer reading in the log so we saw it coming and reefed early.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Not correct. Motoring upwind with the headsail furled to recover a MOB is possible in strong winds and seas. Have practiced this in winds of 30 knots dozens of times over the years. Practice and confidence work.
alant
Well-Known Member
Done often whilst demonstrating on various school boats, so conditions varied, not always done in Lake Solent.
Wind conditions varied, but so did sail set up accordingly. Procedure can seem alarming, as main gybes, but rather potentially break boat bits, than end up explaining why someone had died.
Also used it on corporate charters, when anyone fearfully about boat falling over, put them on the wheel & ask them to put helm hard over. Their improved confidence is usually immediate when they realise the boat is still OK. . Suggest you try it if not already done, even 'regular' sailors can be surprised by the manouverability & often they gain in confidence.
PS make sure no loose gear down below & warn everyone in advance.
alant
Well-Known Member
Did MOB off Corsica, to recover owners tumbling RIB, in 55 knts gusting, under engine of course (can you go & get it, because my insurance excess won't cover the £1500 value, was his 'request').
Managed eventually to get it alongside & lifted damaged rib back on board with owner helping, my wife (who had never steered previously) put on helm during this recovery (grab hold of this) & we were almost still talking afterward.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
As a matter of interest, how many actual humans have you recovered in this way?
alant
Well-Known Member
Shouldn't you ask, "how many MoB's have been lost, because no practice procedures had been carried out"?
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
The twenty or so man overboard real ones have always been in harbour. At sea, none. MOB practice markers, thousands, mebbe 6 or 7.
I take the precautions that should mean it doesnt happen in the first place, but life being life, I am prepared.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Ta. When you use real people, do you get them back on board to end the drill, or just alongside?
Years ago a friend I was sailing with decided to go for a swim in the middle of the Clyde, it being a nice sunny day. In that case we got him back aboard quite easily - it was a little boat, I gave him my hands and he walked up the hull until he could grab the backstay. I wouldn't have liked to try it if the sea hadn't been glassy calm, if the boat had been any bigger or if he had been more than a puny little shrimp.