MMSI Numbers

[Neeves]

Being the weekend - I was idly wondering

Do many people use MMSI numbers? And if so, what for?

Here it costs us nothing to have an MMSI number - but in terms of a leisure vessel it seems a bit pointless - or do people use the numbers a lot for DSC communication. Here if I want to call a large commercial vessel - I just use the vessel's name and Ch16 - and get an immediate and courteous reply.

Which then raises the issue - if I wanted to call another vessel using DSC - how do I get their MMSI number, is there a directory that you can search by say vessel name (often emblazoned in large letters) or the owner's name if you happen to know who owns a specific vessel.

And then - we have an MMSI number from Australia - unsurprisingly. If we bought a new cat (no intentions) in, say, France (the home of some sexy cats) would we have a French MMSI number, any MMSI number or an Oz MMSI number? We are dual nationals (UK/Oz) but would call Australia home.

Idly wondering

Jonathan

 

[BrianH]

Being the weekend - I was idly wondering

Do many people use MMSI numbers? And if so, what for?

Here it costs us nothing to have an MMSI number - but in terms of a leisure vessel it seems a bit pointless - or do people use the numbers a lot for DSC communication. Here if I want to call a large commercial vessel - I just use the vessel's name and Ch16 - and get an immediate and courteous reply.

Which then raises the issue - if I wanted to call another vessel using DSC - how do I get their MMSI number, is there a directory that you can search by say vessel name (often emblazoned in large letters) or the owner's name if you happen to know who owns a specific vessel.

And then - we have an MMSI number from Australia - unsurprisingly. If we bought a new cat (no intentions) in, say, France (the home of some sexy cats) would we have a French MMSI number, any MMSI number or an Oz MMSI number? We are dual nationals (UK/Oz) but would call Australia home.

Idly wondering

Jonathan

The only use I make of my MMSI is in my AIS transceiver, where it identifies every transmission long before the 6 minute static sentence is sent to give my target reports the ship's name for any other receiver's display. It is possible to call by DSC that ship from the target list. My AIS display is not connected to my DSC radio so I cannot do that, but many are and can.

Your MMSI is supplied when you register the VHF radio and is country specific (identified by the number's prefix) and usually associated with the ship's country of registration. The AIS reports will then identify the ship's nationality by the MMSI.

.

 

[[70521]]

Do you not have compulsory radio training in Australia?

 

[Neeves]

Do you not have compulsory radio training in Australia?

Of course we do, how else would you get the certificate for both HF and VHF

But

Mine was a few decades ago, like 4, before DSC and AIS were even a dream. and I then did an update in Oz 2 decades ago when DSC and AIS were still in nappies. (again for both VHF and HF). As I indicate AIS is hardly a critical function in Australia and whatever knowledge was imparted on DSC and AIS, then, has never ever been used. Do you remember what you were taught 20 years ago - frankly I doubt it (especially if you have never used it once since).

So - instead of being smart - why not answer the queries, but maybe you have forgotten

Jonathan

 

[[70521]]

Of course we do, how else would you get the certificate for both HF and VHF

But

Mine was a few decades ago, like 4, before DSC and AIS were even a dream. and I then did an update in Oz 2 decades ago when DSC and AIS were still in nappies. (again for both VHF and HF). As I indicate AIS is hardly a critical function in Australia and whatever knowledge was imparted on DSC and AIS, then, has never ever been used. Do you remember what you were taught 20 years ago - frankly I doubt it (especially if you have never used it once since).

So - instead of being smart - why not answer the queries, but maybe you have forgotten

Jonathan

I was just surprised that the question was being asked! Sorry to disappoint you but I do remember what I was taught 20 years ago or even 40 years ago when I was at school. Even use most of the maths I was taught (being a cynical engineer and all that); often surprise my 16 year old when she comes out with a fact when I correct her and get her to check it.

I use it for being able:

1. To send a DSC distress message, hopefully that will never happen;
2. Call another vessel directly (that usually surprises them);
3. Call a group of vessels , usually when sailing in company to find out who is nearest the pub as we are usually way behind (takes a bit of setting up as most people never use this function);
4. Getting a lat and long of another vessel (as long as they have that set to automatic response);
5. On my AIS transponder so that friends and family know where I am (I am not convinced AIS is useful to a leisure sailor on the water unless you want to know the name of that big ship over there and where it is going.

 

[NormanS]

I'm like Jonathan, in that I first got a licence to operate a VHF many many years ago. I did an update for DSC, probably about 20 years ago. I have a DSC equipped radio, but have never used DSC. We tend to use the radio much less than previously, probably matched by increased use of mobile phones.

 

[Neeves]

Thanks to both Barnacle and Sandy.

So MMSI numbers are used - though Sandy's answer No 2 suggests - not very often (or the recipient would not be surprised.

I gather from Sandy's response you might not use Ch 16, whereas here - everyone uses it.

Sandy, we are of the same opinion regarding AIS - the problems are the very small vessels without AIS (and often inadequate lights) - unless you have very defective sight - big ships are fairly obvious in good vis (and we have radar when its poor vis)

If anyone wants to know where we are - any form of internet, or mobile phone (to take up Norman' comment) communication works well covering most of Oz and its waters (there are still a few isolated gaps)

Jonathan

 

[[70521]]

I'm like Jonathan, in that I first got a licence to operate a VHF many many years ago. I did an update for DSC, probably about 20 years ago. I have a DSC equipped radio, but have never used DSC. We tend to use the radio much less than previously, probably matched by increased use of mobile phones.

We struggle with mobile phone once we get 10 miles offshore

But I agree it is much easier to call the pub before hand to set up the drinks, once you have a signal.

Richard Falk gave an excellent talk on the "navigation and meteorology challenges of the Sydney to Hobart race" a few months back. Given the distances involved I am not surprised that VHF is not greatly used in Australia.

 

[maby]

I use DSC quite a lot - I have the MMSI numbers of friends' boats programmed into the radio together with those of the CG stations in my cruising area. I also use the MMSI retrieved by the AIS receiver to call up nearby vessels if their intentions are unclear and we could be in danger of coming too close to each other. There is an increasing trend towards not maintaining a proper "listening watch" on channel 16.

 

[awol]

During racing a DSC call to an opponent at critical moments, e.g. leeward mark rounding, can elicit a satisfactory result.

 

[NormanS]

We struggle with mobile phone once we get 10 miles offshore

But I agree it is much easier to call the pub before hand to set up the drinks, once you have a signal.

Richard Falk gave an excellent talk on the "navigation and meteorology challenges of the Sydney to Hobart race" a few months back. Given the distances involved I am not surprised that VHF is not greatly used in Australia.

We sailed for years with no form of communication at all. We used to try to phone home about weekly. Sometimes that involved a long walk. I have never felt the need to be on a lead.

 

[Chris Edwards]

MMSI was introduced with GMDSS in the early 90s as a digital callsign. Before that we had selcall.
It reflects your callsign digitally and so is country specific. The first three digits are a MID and show the country (like a telephone number prefix).

The ITU List of Ship Stations is the book which will list MMSI numbers but this is really for ships and is a mandatory publication on vessels over 300GRT. Its the size of a telephone directory.

For smaller vessels, AIS is the best source of MMSI. I usually have internet coverage at sea, so will google the MMSI of a ship if I have her name or IMO number. This often works for yachts too as the AIS based websites like Marinetraffic will list them.

Do I use it on a yacht, no, not directly.

It is used indirectly on EPIRBs etc.

You could use it to wake up other vessels and alert them to your impending voice call, but Ive never felt the need.
I keep VHF comms with ships to an absolute minimum. Most answer promptly in confined waters, usually because they are under pilotage. Offshore, I keep out of their way. Misunderstandings are easy in the spoken word, especially with use of English varying.

Being the weekend - I was idly wondering

Do many people use MMSI numbers? And if so, what for?

Here it costs us nothing to have an MMSI number - but in terms of a leisure vessel it seems a bit pointless - or do people use the numbers a lot for DSC communication. Here if I want to call a large commercial vessel - I just use the vessel's name and Ch16 - and get an immediate and courteous reply.

Which then raises the issue - if I wanted to call another vessel using DSC - how do I get their MMSI number, is there a directory that you can search by say vessel name (often emblazoned in large letters) or the owner's name if you happen to know who owns a specific vessel.

And then - we have an MMSI number from Australia - unsurprisingly. If we bought a new cat (no intentions) in, say, France (the home of some sexy cats) would we have a French MMSI number, any MMSI number or an Oz MMSI number? We are dual nationals (UK/Oz) but would call Australia home.

Idly wondering

Jonathan

 

[[70521]]

Thanks to both Barnacle and Sandy.

So MMSI numbers are used - though Sandy's answer No 2 suggests - not very often (or the recipient would not be surprised.

I gather from Sandy's response you might not use Ch 16, whereas here - everyone uses it.

Sandy, we are of the same opinion regarding AIS - the problems are the very small vessels without AIS (and often inadequate lights) - unless you have very defective sight - big ships are fairly obvious in good vis (and we have radar when its poor vis)

If anyone wants to know where we are - any form of internet, or mobile phone (to take up Norman' comment) communication works well covering most of Oz and its waters (there are still a few isolated gaps)

Jonathan

You have hit it on the head Jonathan, it is not used as much as it could be. My degree is in digital communications (everything from ultra low frequency underwater transmissions to satellites via radio/TV and the the internet) so I am a bit bias in using a technology that is available and free. I rarely use CH16 as I've no need to unless I am hailing a vessel I don't have the details for.

Totally agree about the AIS, but it has come from the shipping world. If you have time there is a YouTube video about the early development of AIS and its use - basically for tracking big ships for overt and covert reasons. Spent an afternoon in a French Semaphore Station (a bit like a manned Coastguard Station) and spoke to them how they use it. A ship enters French waters and the AIS marker is linked to the ship and its cargo manifest. If there is ever a problem they know exactly what is on it and can track from entering to departing French waters, utter brilliance.

Lots of leisure sailors think AIS is the bees knees and will save them from impending disaster, it won't. It will tell them what is where and if you both remain on the current course and speed you, theoretically, will collide - I usually have at least one set of Mark I eyeballs onboard who will do that far faster than any electronics, but do worry about the reliance on electronics on solving every problem by the majority of leisure sailors, pop a way point here and go to that and another one there and go to that. problem is when five other vessels do the same thing and everybody is not paying attention to what is around them.

Perhaps because I understand the maths behind getting a signal to a GPS receiver and how easy it is to get it wrong only use GPS as a backup to doing it the old fashioned way with paper and pencil.

 

[RichardS]

If you want to use an AIS transceiver you have no choice but to obtain and enter an MMSI number ..... although you could just make one up, of course.

Richard

 

[Neeves]

We struggle with mobile phone once we get 10 miles offshore


Given the distances involved I am not surprised that VHF is not greatly used in Australia.

It varies in reliability but we have mobile phone coverage from Sydney to Hobart. There is a small gap roughly half way between the mainland and Tasmania but coverage is surprisingly good. In most of our States we have some form of 'marine rescue' - volunteers operating radio stations. They are largely all VHF - so I may have given the wrong impression -VHF voice is used, it is common - its based on conventional Ch16 and then a move to another channel, which might be a repeater. We also have a largely unused HF reporting facility covering all of Australia's areas of ocean responsibility. We can request a weather forecast from any of the coast station and there are 4 hourly forecasts from our Bur of Met on HF. If there is the need - the volunteer would call out the Water Police (who offer a service a bit like the RNLI) and EPIRB are monitored in, or at least by, Canberra

We can thus sign on in, say Sydney, and make passage to Hobart and be passed from one VHF radio station to the next. This does not work for Bass Strait, its too large a distance for VHF, but you can use HF (which is more popular in Tasmania - because there is minimal population on the west coat - so limited coverage).

Because one monitors Ch16 you also know who else might be transitting - and can call them up on Ch16. Yacht to yacht VHF is quite common - initiated on Ch16. Most (all) commercial vessels monitor and respond to Ch16 - politely and with reasonable English (they have to speak English or they would not get into port . Port control here use VHF (when advising commercial vessels to anchor or enter port) - not DSC

We have a DSC enabled VHF (I think it was ICOM's first DSC enabled set) - but we have never once used the DSC facility. Our HF is pre-DSC.

Because we have good, can I call it conventionally old fashioned, VHF and where there are gaps we have HF coverage the need to actually use MMSI numbers (or use DSC) is simply not there (or WE have never felt the need).

Our leisure marine communication have developed differently to those in the UK The communication for commercial vessels uses voice VHF (at least round Sydney and Newcastle). This lead me to ponder how the MMSI numbering (and DSC) was used outside the sheltered confines of Australia. We lived in HK before DSC (and AIS) gained traction - so it offered no background.


AIS is used the same way as described - vessels are monitored and tracked (and those tracks recorded for a period) - and if marine pollution is detected - the culprit can be identified. Big brother is watching!

Jonathan

Sandy - adding to a point you make - we do use a free communication facility and it works well under our local conditions (of not much traffic). Carnegie would have approved!

 

[maby]

The advantage of DSC over voice VHF is that it is targetted at a specific vessel and it is difficult to ignore or not notice. We had a good example a few months ago - we had made friends with a German couple who had visited our marina and intended to meet up with them again later. We knew that they were intending to sail in the evening and we had to be out in the afternoon - were going to meet up with them before they set off. We were delayed and got back to the marina to find them gone. I put out a couple of calls on 16 but got no reply. We are in a very busy shipping area and sitting on 16, calling repeatedly would not have been popular - so I booted up the plotter with AIS attached and saw them some miles away. I told the plotter to make a DSC call to them and they responded almost immediately - my calls to them were getting lost in the frequent traffic on 16, but the incoming DSC call sounded an alarm on their radio and switched automatically to the channel I had selected.

 

[[70521]]

The advantage of DSC over voice VHF is that it is targetted at a specific vessel and it is difficult to ignore or not notice.

That is a myth. Unless the laws of physics have changed. The only difference is you sound an alarm (if it switched on) on the receiving set.

 

[maby]

That is a myth. Unless the laws of physics have changed. The only difference is you sound an alarm (if it switched on) on the receiving set.

OK - of course the radio waves are not targetted at a specific vessel, but the communication is - any radio other than the addressed one will ignore the message - hence calling someone who is not in range does not unnecessarily annoy other radio operators, and the addressed radio will sound an alarm to draw the attention of the crew without them being pinned to the speaker listening. (I am also an electronic engineer)

 

[prv]

So MMSI numbers are used - though Sandy's answer No 2 suggests - not very often (or the recipient would not be surprised.

DSC routine calls appear to not be used all that often - though of course we can't easily tell because the whole point is that only the sender and recipient are aware of the call

However, MMSI numbers are used constantly in AIS transmissions by everyone who has either a transmitter or a receiver, and that's an increasingly large proportion of vessels around here. I'm actually surprised quite how many yachts and motorboats do transmit; of course there's no direct way of counting receivers but conversations here show they're pretty common.

Everyone who's installed a new radio in a boat or taken over a boat with a DSC radio already fitted should have an MMSI, because it will be issued along with their station license. The majority of course will not use it for anything day to day (I don't) but we nearly all have one.

If you want to call another vessel using DSC you'd typically get the number by AIS. You can try searching for them in the ITU database but I wouldn't expect people to be doing that at sea.

The new boat you buy in France doesn't have an MMSI until someone takes out a radio station license for it. In your case it would obviously be sensible for you to do that with the Australian radio authorities; they would issue you an Australian MMSI. Up to their rules whether you could take out a license for a boat physically in France, but I know I could do it with our Ofcom if I'd just bought a boat in Oz. The only slight difficulty would be if the French manufacturer had decided to take out a French license in their name and programmed the resulting French MMSI into the VHF - when the specs were drawn up the USA insisted that the general public not be able to change them once entered. But I'm sure the manufacturer wouldn't be daft enough to do this.

Pete

 

[Roberto]

OK - of course the radio waves are not targetted at a specific vessel, but the communication is - any radio other than the addressed one will ignore the message - hence calling someone who is not in range does not unnecessarily annoy other radio operators, and the addressed radio will sound an alarm to draw the attention of the crew without them being pinned to the speaker listening. (I am also an electronic engineer)

Have used the DSC routine call several times towards ships, when I had doubts about their intentions, I haven t counted but say 20-30times, I usually input ch72 instead of the usual 06 which is more likely to be busy, they *always* replied. Very personal statistics of course, but surely I will continue using this system when need be.
Also, I think the call is automatically logged on the voyage recorder, should they not reply to DSC, I suspect a voice call on 16 with their name/MMSI and the wording "collision course" would probably awaken anyone except some very low standard crew ships; though I have never had the need to do so.