rafiki_
Well-Known Member
Sensible attitude, hope it goes well for you.
Mixed feelings about survey done today
- Thread starter M1800R
- Start date
Bbroomlea
Well-Known Member
Having read through the thread it seems your main issue is the hull moisture readings.
I bought our first boat - a Sealine S24 5 years ago and it had some blisters and some medium/high moisture readings having been sat in fresh water since new. I worried about that quite a bit but my surveyor seemed to think it was perfectly normal for the age of the boat. The hull was not delaminating or structurally compromised and he made a good point that I could be surveying boats forever to get one thats perfect.
Everything else checked out ok - engine and drive was good and we negotiated a bit of money off to fix the few blisters on the hull. We never bothered and 3 years later moved to a S28 and sold the boat for 4K more than we paid for it, having had 3 fantastic years afloat. We have met some great people and had some great times and boating is now part of our lives
I would not worry at all - at this age expect some high moisture readings if the boat has been where it belongs in the water. The only way around it is to find one that has sat on a trailer most of its life and they are few and far between.
I bought our first boat - a Sealine S24 5 years ago and it had some blisters and some medium/high moisture readings having been sat in fresh water since new. I worried about that quite a bit but my surveyor seemed to think it was perfectly normal for the age of the boat. The hull was not delaminating or structurally compromised and he made a good point that I could be surveying boats forever to get one thats perfect.
Everything else checked out ok - engine and drive was good and we negotiated a bit of money off to fix the few blisters on the hull. We never bothered and 3 years later moved to a S28 and sold the boat for 4K more than we paid for it, having had 3 fantastic years afloat. We have met some great people and had some great times and boating is now part of our lives
I would not worry at all - at this age expect some high moisture readings if the boat has been where it belongs in the water. The only way around it is to find one that has sat on a trailer most of its life and they are few and far between.
M1800R
Active Member
M1800R
Active Member
Hi Bbromlea,
Thank you for your story, it does ad a bit of more comfort. The humidity issue is the only concern, nothing else. When you look at the second hand market you cannot expect to find a boat without a fault, in fact, even when new you can still find issues in the hull and other bits. Sometime because the quality of the materials used, sometimes because the environment where the boat was built and sometimes due to sheer sloppiness of the person that was doing that bit of work at the construction site. I guess my question is now if I am going to have high humidity readings does this means I will at some point in the near future have blistering or any defects on the hull?
Can these levels affect the integrity of the hull?
I am planning to take her out of the water at the end of every season to do all the maintenance required little by little and get to know every little cranny she has ( I am really sad like that with my bike and car)
Is there something that can be done like sanding the entire hull, let it dry and apply a new protecting layer of something?
Kind regards
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Vitesse
Well-Known Member
As I understand it merely having the boat ashore is enough to keep the moisture down. I don't know how the readings have stayed high after 9 months, mind.
GRP boats don't seem fall apart with age. As others have said, look at the overall condition and get the engine and drive checked.
GRP boats don't seem fall apart with age. As others have said, look at the overall condition and get the engine and drive checked.
M1800R
Active Member
Thank you Vitesse,
That is my big question too, she will be taken out of the water every season so I am hoping this can keep the issue at bay.
Kind regards
ari
Well-Known Member
Ok so you've received the contract but not signed it (and presumably neither has the owner), and you haven't paid a deposit. But you have had a survey, although it has been organised by the broker not you, and by someone he recommended.
Scubadoo
Well-Known Member
Maybe a long shot, but check if the boat hull has been epoxied, if it has then it won't dry out (even after 9months) and it could have had high reading before the epoxy was applied and hence trapped in the moisture. Just a thought.
I would also add that low engine hours is not necessarily a good thing, just means it has been sitting around more, so make sure you get a good engineer to check things overs (Volvopaul) is highly recommended on this forum. My main concern would be the engine and outdrive, you could also get the engine oil sample tested - not done that myself but people on this forum have done that.
I would also add that low engine hours is not necessarily a good thing, just means it has been sitting around more, so make sure you get a good engineer to check things overs (Volvopaul) is highly recommended on this forum. My main concern would be the engine and outdrive, you could also get the engine oil sample tested - not done that myself but people on this forum have done that.
gjgm
Well-Known Member
Well you found a boat that might tick the boxes and you get a bit excited about it all (and so you should!), and then doubts start. This is normal. You need to establish if the doubts are justified or not. Now I know that sounds obvious, but making that decision is not. Yes, the engine and the outdrive are where the big risks will be as it can be horrendous- possibly more than you pay for the boat. But this is an old boat- not a new one with a warranty, so you must accept that the risks are much higher. You can try to get some professional advice, but that doesnt mean nothing will go wrong in 6 weeks- just hopefully that nothing was wrong when you bought it. This point really seems to get lost with some people. The only magical event is change of ownership; you still have a pile of risks tomorrow when you own it.
Might have been said elsewhere, but you need to be sure just how good your surveyor is. Anyone can stick a humidity meter in and say, cor that is high. You need him to tell you that is probably because it has ben sitting in the water for years, or, or ... The document will also be covering his butt, so a verbal understanding is vital.
There is nothing wrong with DIY as long as the guy knows what he is doing. Changing oil is hardling difficult, for example and not everyone keeps folders of paper for an old boat. Oh, and the broker is not working for you; he might be super-honest, but I would not base any decision on anything that he says AT ALL, unless he can produce documents.
In the end.. do you trust the seller..? That is about a good a test as a survey, IMHO.
It is an old boat; it will always have alot of potential risks. It might go wrong tomorrow or never. Part of it is assessing whether you can take that risk, and as someone else said, if this is worrying you, unduly, walk away, because you will not get one iota of pleasure from the boat.
So, back to the beginning.. yes we all worry a bit when buying;try to know what risk you are taking on and be absolutely sure that you are comfortable with that risk.
Hopefully all is well and you have many happy seasons.
Might have been said elsewhere, but you need to be sure just how good your surveyor is. Anyone can stick a humidity meter in and say, cor that is high. You need him to tell you that is probably because it has ben sitting in the water for years, or, or ... The document will also be covering his butt, so a verbal understanding is vital.
There is nothing wrong with DIY as long as the guy knows what he is doing. Changing oil is hardling difficult, for example and not everyone keeps folders of paper for an old boat. Oh, and the broker is not working for you; he might be super-honest, but I would not base any decision on anything that he says AT ALL, unless he can produce documents.
In the end.. do you trust the seller..? That is about a good a test as a survey, IMHO.
It is an old boat; it will always have alot of potential risks. It might go wrong tomorrow or never. Part of it is assessing whether you can take that risk, and as someone else said, if this is worrying you, unduly, walk away, because you will not get one iota of pleasure from the boat.
So, back to the beginning.. yes we all worry a bit when buying;try to know what risk you are taking on and be absolutely sure that you are comfortable with that risk.
Hopefully all is well and you have many happy seasons.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
High moisture readings are not a big issue. The thing to look out for is blistering that indicates possible osmosis. Even then no big deal as if dealt with early can be checked by local repair.
As others have said, far more important to check out the mechanicals as theses are what potentially cause grief and big bills.
Just get out there and enjoy the boat.
M1800R
Active Member
Spot on.
M1800R
Active Member
Hi, thank you for the tips.
How do you check if the boat has been epoxied btw?
Kind regards
superheat6k
Well-Known Member
Your later response to the above is 'Spot on'.
From what you say you do not have a contract BUT earlier on (post 46) you mention that the Broker has informed you if you do not reject the boat within 3 weeks you accept the boat. There is also mention of a purchase document, This means you could find yourself legally obliged to buy it. Your assumption your offer is somehow subject to the advice or views of the surveyor is not correct - your offer is your offer. You can only use the survey report if it reveals 'significant' defects not otherwise revealed. Any rejection on grounds of a survey not revealing 'significant' defects could be difficult for you.
You have made it clear you are a novice buyer, your surveyor is nominated by the broker, and the broker does not appear to be following a conventional sale path - Offer subject to survey, accepted, sales contract drawn up normally requiring a 10% deposit, survey, grounds for rejection / renegotiation, pay for boat or walk away, with costs for haul out incurred by broker or owner retained from deposit. Without seeing the purchase document (i.e. the Contract), it is difficult to see what your obligations are.
I do not want to put you off, and nothing may be wrong at all, but the establsihed mode of conducting a sale by a broker does not seem right. The survey issues are clearly distracting you, and something is clearly unsettling you, and this surveyor should not be allied to the broker beyond casual acquaintance natural in a small industry.
JFM where are you - this guy needs decent advice quickly.
dombuckley
Well-Known Member
I have some(!) experience of using Tramex meters. They are quite easy to use, but the results can be misinterpreted, even by professionals (who should know better).
The most important thing to point out is that the 0-100 scale is not, I repeat not, let me say that again NOT! a percentage scale. It is purely a range of numbers. The actual percentage is worked out by post-processing, taking into account temperature and humidity.
PBO published an article a few years back about Solent University conducting research, testing moisture meters on GRP panels. The panels were soaked in water and weighed, to gauge the actual moisture content, so the meters could be tested against known moisture levels. I use the results of that research to convert the numbers on the scale into real-world percentages.
Assuming your surveyor a) had the meter on the correct setting and b) was reading the correct scale, then, given the average conditions yesterday, your average of 18 on the topsides equates to about 0.35%. Yes, about one-third of one per cent. The average on the bottom (37-38) is about 0.52-0.53%, while the highest reading of 49 is about 0.65%. So, while it is definitely a statistical "outlier", and would benefit from a little further investigation, the situation is very far from the 50% moisture content being bandied about. If that had been true, your hull could dissolve into a pulpy mess at any minute!
Your surveyor was probably using a "broad brush" approach when saying that anything less than 50 was good. The level at which moisture related defects start occurring in a 70-30 polyester resin/glass mat laminate is give or take, about 1.7%. There is a mathematical formula for working out how quickly the mat dries out over time. To cut a long story short, a vessel which has been out of the water for about 9 months would have lost a little less than half its moisture content: anything less than 0.9% would be OK. Given current temperature / humidity conditions, this would give a reading of about 75 on a Tramex meter.
To summarise: the moisture readings are nothing to worry about. Save that for the engine and outdrive.
The most important thing to point out is that the 0-100 scale is not, I repeat not, let me say that again NOT! a percentage scale. It is purely a range of numbers. The actual percentage is worked out by post-processing, taking into account temperature and humidity.
PBO published an article a few years back about Solent University conducting research, testing moisture meters on GRP panels. The panels were soaked in water and weighed, to gauge the actual moisture content, so the meters could be tested against known moisture levels. I use the results of that research to convert the numbers on the scale into real-world percentages.
Assuming your surveyor a) had the meter on the correct setting and b) was reading the correct scale, then, given the average conditions yesterday, your average of 18 on the topsides equates to about 0.35%. Yes, about one-third of one per cent. The average on the bottom (37-38) is about 0.52-0.53%, while the highest reading of 49 is about 0.65%. So, while it is definitely a statistical "outlier", and would benefit from a little further investigation, the situation is very far from the 50% moisture content being bandied about. If that had been true, your hull could dissolve into a pulpy mess at any minute!
Your surveyor was probably using a "broad brush" approach when saying that anything less than 50 was good. The level at which moisture related defects start occurring in a 70-30 polyester resin/glass mat laminate is give or take, about 1.7%. There is a mathematical formula for working out how quickly the mat dries out over time. To cut a long story short, a vessel which has been out of the water for about 9 months would have lost a little less than half its moisture content: anything less than 0.9% would be OK. Given current temperature / humidity conditions, this would give a reading of about 75 on a Tramex meter.
To summarise: the moisture readings are nothing to worry about. Save that for the engine and outdrive.
M1800R
Active Member
Ok, the survey came back on Sunday and I have read it several times. The more I read it the more I convinced my self. The humidity reading below the water line was on shallow mode 15-34 and on deep mode 16-59. The readings were taken on 15 different places and according to the report the highest reading was underneath the engine compartment, suggesting that the reading was that high because some water on the engine compartment was left there. A few other bits came out like getting new batteries as we could not power any instrument under the batteries power but we could under shore power line, servicing fire extinguishers, new bilge pump (preferably get an electric one) and the gate valves needing replacement for the ball type and corrosion resistant ones. So, it looks like we are going ahead but my questions are as follow:
As she is on dry stack at the moment and will need a fresh coat of anti fouling since the coat she was given has not seen the water yet but is 9 months old, should I get an engineer to have a look at the engine and outdrive or launch her for the sea trial and then take her out again to do the engine and outdrive service and new antifouling? I was thinking on saving some money on the crane in out and in again. Also, how long should the trial last and what are the things I should be looking for?
Thank you guys, hopefully I will stop this nuisance soon.
Kind regards
As she is on dry stack at the moment and will need a fresh coat of anti fouling since the coat she was given has not seen the water yet but is 9 months old, should I get an engineer to have a look at the engine and outdrive or launch her for the sea trial and then take her out again to do the engine and outdrive service and new antifouling? I was thinking on saving some money on the crane in out and in again. Also, how long should the trial last and what are the things I should be looking for?
Thank you guys, hopefully I will stop this nuisance soon.
Kind regards
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jimmy_the_builder
Well-Known Member
Post the survey if you like. Personally I wouldn't spend money on the antifoul and drive service until I was certain I was buying the boat. From what you've said before, and here, the survey hasn't revealed any showstoppers - but much of the value of this boat is in the engine and outdrive, so you're not over the line until the engineer has had a proper look at it.
On the sea trials I've been on, both the surveyor and (where I've instructed one separately) the engineer have come along. What they are interested in is making sure the boat performs as intended; for example one test my surveyor has always done is to make sure the boat will run at wot for 5 minutes without overheating. So I'd let them do their jobs, and not worry too much about trying to cover all the bases yourself.
Dill et Bound
Well-Known Member
Plus 1 for Jimmys advice.
M1800R
Active Member
Thank you very much Jimmy, much appreciated.
I will do that and make sure I get someone with knowledge on board for the sea trial, preferably a neutral party.
As always, good advice,
Kind regards
M1800R
Active Member
And thank you too.
jimmy_the_builder
Well-Known Member
Isn't your surveyor and/or engineer going along?
